Big 12 Roundtable: Week 5

by RPT on Oct 1, 2008 10:30 AM CDT in National Football 2008 Comment 13 comments

With the return of Big 12 play looming on the schedule, it was about time we revived the Big 12 Roundtable. This week's set of questions comes to us from PB at Burnt Orange Nation...

1. We start with a review of your team's non-conference performance. Take the format of my Week 5 Big 12 Report and give us your Offensive MVP, Defensive MVP, and Projected Finish. (Limit 125 words max on each.)

RMN: Credit to BON for a fairly even-handed assessment of Missouri entering Big 12 play, which can be read here for reference. As much as I love Jeremy Maclin, though, I find it difficult to name him the offense's MVP when arguably the most valuable player in the entire nation lines up under center. I know it's "cool" to distribute credit and name drop wherever possible, but Chase Daniel is the most valuable player in the country, much less for the Missouri offense. As much as I want to give some serious dap to Maclin, Derrick Washington, Chase Coffman and the MU offensive line, Daniel is your man. On defense, everything PB said about Sean Weatherspoon stands true. As for projected finish, before the season, I tabbed Missouri to be a perfect 12-0 and 8-0 in conference during regular season play (note that this is NOT a prediction of Big 12/National titles). For now, I'll stick by that prediction, although the Texas game is beginning to worry me far more than it originally did.

2. Oklahoma State is one of two Big 12 teams not represented by bloggers. Don your oversized Cowboy hat for a day and give us your take on Mike Gundy's team. Are they same old same old (above average offense, putrid defense)? Or something else?

RMN: I have the same issues with Oklahoma State that I currently have with Texas and Texas Tech: I have simply no idea what to make of them until I see them play someone semi-legit (sorry, Arkansas, but you don't count this year). The Pokes certainly found ways to put up numbers in non-conference, and the offense Gundy's compiled in Stillwater provides the kinds of energy that T. Boone Pickens is dedicating his life to finding. I realize I'm supposed to be an "expert" on the Big 12, but I (and others, I assume) really won't know much about the Cowboys' worthiness until I see them up close and personal on the road in Columbia for a nationally televised night game. Sure, beating Texas A&M at home is nice, but the road to legitimacy for OSU begins Oct. 11 at 7:00.

More roundtable madness after the jump...

3. Your team has reached the Big 12 title game, but in a cruel twist of fate, your coach is declared ineligible and you have been asked to select among the other 11 coaches in the conference your team's game day maestro. Who do you select and why?

RMN: Everyone at Rock M Nation: close your eyes for a moment. If Pinkel's a no-go, I'm stuck with one answer: Bob Stoops. The man knows how to win Big 12 championships, even if they come at the price of being embarrassed in BCS games every year. Outside of Stoops, not many coaches are proven. Hawkins, Pelini, Prince, Chizik, Sherman, Briles and Gundy are all relatively untested in big games. If it were long-term rather than just one game, I might take a flier on Mangino. The same goes for Mack Brown, who I still consider to be one of the elite program-builders in the nation but only an average gameday coach. And Leach? I'll turn to him if I have a date after the title game.

4. Same situation, but different replacement: Assume this time that it's your quarterback who can't participate in the Big 12 title game. Which other quarterback from the conference would you select to lead your team for that game?

RMN: Allow me to quote what I said in the preseason edition of the Roundtable:

"Replacing Daniel is a tough task, but that has a lot to do with personal biases. Graham Harrell puts up huge numbers and has a gun of an arm, but he is neither mentally nor physically tough. Ditto for Colt McCoy. Sam Bradford is extremely efficient, but I wonder what he would do if he wasn't behind the impenetrable force known as the Sooner O-Line. I love Todd Reesing's grittiness, but, come on, this is a Missouri site - I'm NOT taking Reesing to replace Daniel. Can I cop out and make a hybrid? I'll take the leadership of Reesing, the arm of Harrell, the composure of Bradford, the legs of Texas backup John Chiles and the cojones of Stephen McGee. I just created the Tim Tebow of the Big 12."

So, yeah. What I said. Although I'm beginning to come around on McCoy, and I should probably find a way to fit Zac Robinson into the discussion somehow...

5. Imagine it is July 2008 and you receive an email from the conference's director of public relations, who informs you that the Big 12 has officially partnered with Austin City Limits Music Festival 2008. To promote the partnership, the conference has asked you to choose one of the festival's participating bands as metaphor for your football team and explain it. Go.

RMN: I don't claim to be "the music guy," by any stretch of imagination, so I'll probably have to trust And The Valley Shook, who compares Mizzou to Fleet Foxes by saying the following:

"Fleet Foxes are the next hot young band that is getting tons of hype for the greatest album of the year. Which means in about five years no one will remember them, but if they did they would chant “Overrated!” at them. This is clearly Mizzou."

Since I don't feel qualified enough to pin one artist on Mizzou, I'll instead pick out a couple of songs from ACL artists whose music I happen to be a fan of and apply them to Missouri football in 2008:

Foo Fighters "Everlong" - Hello 2008, we've waited here for you, everlong.

Robert Earl Keen "Feeling Good Again" - It's been awhile since Mizzou's had an era of football like this. It feels so good, feeling good again.

Eli Young Band "That's the Way" - As much as it begrudges me as a fan of Red Dirt music to use Eli Young, I can only hope "fate's got a plan for us."

I'd love to include Blues Traveler, Old 97s, Jose Gonzales and Donavon Frankenreiter, but I can't do it without epically failing on the correlation. So I'm content to just name drop...

6. Answer all of the following in no more than two sentences:

(A) Conference's best quarterback?
(B) Conference's best offense?
(C) Big 12 South winner?
(D) Big 12 North winner?
(E) Big 12 champion?
(F) Big 12 team you would adopt as your favorite if forced to abandon your own?
(G) One prediction that might surprise the rest of us?

RMN: Rapid fire answers!

A) Chase "Golden Watermelon Balls of Fury / Booger / THERE'S NO GODDAMN 'S' IN DANIEL" Daniel. End of story.

B) Missouri. End of story.

C) Oklahoma, although Texas is a lot closer than I expected. The Sooners are the class of the nation right now, much less the conference.

D) Missouri. It's the Tigers' division title to lose until someone knocks them off.

E) (Earplugs, RMN) Oklahoma. I'll catch sh*t for it, but until I see a little bit more, I'm sticking with my gut feeling of OU over MU in the title game.

F) For family ties, I side with my brother's alma mater: Texas A&M. Other than that, it goes to either Oklahoma State (seem like good people) or Kansas State (ditto).

G) Are there really many possible legitimate predictions that haven't already been made? Just for fun, I'll say the Big 12 ends the season with more AP Top 10 teams than the SEC.

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Comments

One area of disagreement

I’m at a loss as to how you think McCoy is neither physically or mentally tough. He may have struggled last year, but let me tell you: He played his guts out every game and took considerable punishment that resulted from bad protection. Yet he constantly came out and gave it his all. Even his harshest critics have to admit that the guy is one tough cookie.

by TheElusiveShadow on Oct 1, 2008 3:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I assume...

…he just meant “He seems to get hurt a lot.” Not that he doesn’t give his all in that regard…

Rock M Nation
Thrust nunchuk upward!

by Bill C. on Oct 1, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That quote

… was pulled directly from what I said before the start of the season. But, like I said following the quote, I’m certainly beginning to come around on McCoy.

The physical toughness was indeed a testament to his penchant for injury, although Colt is certainly on his way to refuting that charge and then some (see the TD run against Rice). I still have my concerns about his mental toughness, though. Whenever things start doing badly or he’s not being protected, things seem to snowball on him. In the losses to Kansas State and Texas A&M, his game continued to fall as his pouting picked up.

Again, though, let me stress how much I’ve been impressed with him ever since the loss to A&M in College Station last year. I still have some of my doubts, but they’ve certainly been lessened from the Holiday Bowl through last week.

http://www.RockMNation.com
Chance McDanielson for Heisman

by RPT on Oct 1, 2008 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Penchant for injury?

In his career, Colt has never missed a start, though playing in the 2006 A&M game was ill-advised. This was something the coaches and the trainers should have identified, not him. Colt wanted to play, and he played, despite obviously not having healed from the previous week. The injury, if you’ll remember, came from him having to rush up the middle twice in a row from the 1-yard line because our running back (Selvin Young) failed to get in. Despite being forced out of the game from the injury, he scored a touchdown on that play.

As for mental toughness, he’s 4-2 against ranked teams in his career. One of those losses came as a freshman against #1 ranked Ohio State, in the second start of his career, and he performed better than anyone had hoped. Greg Davis admitted later that the coaching staff had held him back in that game, and he probably could have done more.

He’s 2-0 in bowl games and 1-1 against OU. In last year’s loss to the Sooners, he had a 124 QB rating.

Yes, he had a bad game against Kansas State last year. The entire team did. It happens sometimes. You’re going to attribute it to mental toughness? Laughable.

by Meekrob on Oct 1, 2008 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Meekrob

First, let me extend my apologies for the remarks at BON. Please let those reflect on me individually and not on the community here at RMN.

As for McCoy, you certainly make valid points. With each game McCoy suits up, it’s becoming much tougher for me to question his toughness like I did early in his career.

I don’t solely blame Colt for his trials last year. It seemed like every time I saw Colt, he was being chased by three or four defenders who has completely bypassed his O-Line. This is obviously not Colt’s fault. But, and perhaps this is because we’ve been spoiled with our quarterback, he seems to shrink when his back is actually against the wall. The Holiday Bowl was never in doubt, and Colt was clearly not 100% against Iowa. I will spot Colt his performance in the Red River Shootout last year, but I’m not sure if Texas’ inability to "rally the troops" against KSU and TAMU is a team flaw or a reflection of the quarterback. The way I see it, it reflects on McCoy. But, again, let me stress that ever since Colt left Kyle Field after the 38-30 loss last year, his stock has only shot upward exponentially in my book.

While we’re having this discussion, though, I’ve been meaning to ask: Outside of the maligned offensive line, what was it last year that caused Texas’ offense to shrink at times last season? Am I at all justified on McCoy, or is this all a reflection on Mack and Davis’ playcalling and/or playmakers not doing their jobs?

http://www.RockMNation.com
Chance McDanielson for Heisman

by RPT on Oct 1, 2008 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't want to steal Meekrob's thunder...

…but it seems like you’ve opened a can of worms and Burnt Orange People like cans of worms. The short version is that you seem to have a bit of a sample size problem and that you’re using terms in such a way that we may be misunderstanding you over at BON.

In terms of toughness, for myself at least, I tend to think of it as the ability to play through pain or injury. As Meekrob notes above, there’s really no disputing that Colt is able to play through a variety of injuries – including some that likely should have sidelined him. The question of him being limited by injury -as The Boy notes – is a different issue. Some of Colt’s injuries (nerve injury in his neck/nerve injury to his throwing shoulder) are the type which would understandably limit a quarterback. The fact that he plays through the pain is why we defend his toughness.

The fact that he has had such injuries may go to a question of durability – in the sense of his overall resistance to injury- rather than his ability to endure and contribute in spite of injury. I don’t know, but I would speculate that when your quarterback looks like a bowling ball (Daniel is what, 5-11 230?) you may be more inclined to conflate the meanings whereas we’ve had to parse this out. Daniel’s ability to resist serious injury means that he hasn’t had to play through serious injury and demonstrate that he could endure a shooting pain in shoulder on each attempt. In any case, if you’ve seen Colt lately, he’s obviously put on a great deal of weight and muscle and hopefully put any durability issues behind him.

As to mental toughness – this is a separate issue and one that I have to disagree with you entirely. Evaluating intangibles is difficult by definition and requires a large sample size. Using the A&M games and KSU game to question his mental toughness is not really reasonable. I could just as easily use Daniel’s 2006 meetings with OU and Nebraska to demonstrate that a bad game snowballed on the sophomore. Actually, I recall he looked frustrated or like he was “pouting” – to use your word- during the big 12 championship game last year.

Realistically, there’s a certain reasonable baseline before throwing in the towel on a QB’s mental toughness and you have to define what you’re looking for. If you’ve found a qb who never had a bad game get worse, never got frustrated, and always led his team on a face saving comeback attempt then please point this man-beast out to me. There are a number of NFL hall of fame QB’s, grown men in the prime of their careers, who had bad games get worse, got angry, yelled, and capped the evening off with a pick 6. The question is, did they saddle up and kick some ass the next time they got on the field. Ask Arizona State about McCoy’s ability to do that.

As to the overall year one/year two difference in McCoy’s play, my thoughts are these though they’re hardly original. His first year he had an offensive line composed largely of players who would be shortly starting on Sundays, a future 2nd round pick at receiver (Sweed), and two NFL caliber running backs. He had an embarrassment of riches, mostly upperclassmen who could compensate for his lack of experience, and all he had to do was manage to keep from wrapping the Porsche around a telephone pole. He did much more than that.

In his second year, he was one of our more seasoned offensive players. The fearsome O-line had to spend a year reloading, the top caliber receiver was missing for almost the entire season, and our star running back was the last remaining gem and an explosive threat – except in the passing game. The same things he did the year before didn’t work, he tried new things and succeeded but also fell on his face. Ultimately, I think all recognized that he tried to do too much (he did follow VY and have a record tying freshman year after all) and had to learn to play to his strengths.

So in answer to your final queries, if we’re assigning fault I would assign it thusly. Colt tried to do too much, tried to force plays, and didn’t adjust quickly enough to the fact that the players he had at his disposal as a sophomore weren’t the ones he had as a freshman. The coaches are to blame for not catching this, and helping the game slow down for him (and at times, having a gameplan of give the ball to Charles and hope he runs 80 yards.) And as to playmakers not doing their jobs? We had two last year – Colt and Jamal Charles. Only because they did their jobs, at times spectacularly, did we miracle 10 wins out of what could have easily been an 8 win season.

Sorry for the length.

proud to swim home

by learned hand on Oct 1, 2008 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

A few points to make

Outside of the maligned offensive line, what was it last year that caused Texas’ offense to shrink at times last season? Am I at all justified on McCoy, or is this all a reflection on Mack and Davis’ playcalling and/or playmakers not doing their jobs?

Regarding the O-line, not only was it young, but it was wrought with injuries. We had I think it was Kyle Hix play every position on the O-line at one point or another due to the injures sustained in the season. I don’t know how often that happens, but that was the first time I had heard of it at Texas.

The second largest factor to a reduced passing offense (still managed 14th in the nation in scoring last year, and the 24th rated qb in the nation) was the injuries and absence of the wide receivers. Most notably, our leading WR and draft pick as LH mentioned Limas Sweed. He injured his wrist in preseason workouts. In 2006, Limas was our leading receiver, with 300 more yards than any other, and three times the TD receptions. His wrist hampered him all year, however he tried to play through it until OU. After OU, and an otherwise disappointing year, he had season ending surgery to repair the injury to be ready to go come draft day.

On top of that, our next two TD leaders in receptions from 2006, and the number 3 and 5 receivers in terms of catches also missed significant time in 2007. Billy Pittman was suspended from the team for 3 games for off the field problems, and the ever brittle Jordan Shipley missed at least 2 games to injury. I think it was 3 total for him as well, but I cannot confirm. Even when playing however, it was apparent that he was not at 100%.

2007 saw the surprise emergence of Nate Jones as the leading receiver, up from a 153 yard total year in 2006, to nearly 800 yards in 07. I dont think this was due to a major increase in ability between in Junior and Senior years. Not to take anything away from Nate, he had a hell of a year, but if Sweed and Shipley stayed healthy there is no way he would have gotten near the number of looks he did, and Colt would have put up numbers far closer to his 2006.

Those three receivers made up 20 TDs and 1500 yards in 2006, but dropped to 8 TDs, and 800 yards in 2007.

Its really too bad for Limas, he was set to have a special senior year. Pittman dug his own troubles, and this year hopefully we are seeing what a healthy Shipley can finally do, and how much that affects Colt, and the offenses’ game.

by BoddickerIsClutch on Oct 2, 2008 7:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I should ban you...

…just for your handle. “Brian Boddicker” is a dirty word around these parts.

Rock M Nation
Thrust nunchuk upward!

by Bill C. on Oct 2, 2008 7:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

=D

by BoddickerIsClutch on Oct 2, 2008 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not that he misses games...

…it’s that he seemed limited by injury for the end of 2006 and, depending on who you ask, all of 2007. He hasn’t seemed 100% healthy for a while, and that was one of the reasons I heard for explaining his poorer play last year…

Rock M Nation
Thrust nunchuk upward!

by Bill C. on Oct 1, 2008 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Daniel mentally tough?

I constantly hear from Mizzou fans and the national media that Chase Daniel is a “gamer”. That he never gets flustered, is calm cool and collected, and despite physical limitations he finds a way to pull out big wins. My personal observations of Chase Daniel are limited to the two OU games. I felt that the biggest factor in both games was Daniel making costly turnovers late in the game, deep in his own territory. In the Big 12 Championship he also pouted, yelled at his team mates, and looked despondent on the sidelines. If pouting and letting a tough game get away from you because of snowballing mistakes is a sign of lack of mental toughness i have to believe that this is actually daniel’s weakness, which he makes up for with his physical abilities and grasp of the offense, not the other way around.

Do missouri fans believe that Daniel is really mentally tough and full of heart and courage based on his play, or just that he was not highly recruited and has exceeded expectations.

I do not mean this to start a fight, i really have wondered this for a while and don’t know any mizzou fans in person that i could ask.

ps. i really enjoy your answers to the roundtable questions, thanks for your hard work.

by betterman91 on Oct 2, 2008 6:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

"Daniel making costly turnovers"

The killer in the first OU game was a pure miscommunication from the sideline. Daniel thought it was one play, Maclin thought it was another. It had nothing to do with mental toughness.

The killer in the second OU game was a pass right on the money that bounced off of Martin Rucker’s hands and right into Curtis Lofton’s. Don’t see how that would really be on Daniel either. You could say that he got pissy at his receivers in the second half, and that would be a legitimate complaint, but the turnovers can’t really be put on him.

Rock M Nation
Thrust nunchuk upward!

by Bill C. on Oct 2, 2008 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs