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Missouri at Kansas State: Beyond The Box Score Preview

NOTE: Confused? See the quick glossary at the bottom.

Missouri at Kansas State

Record AP
Rank
2011
F/+ Rk
2011
S&P+ Rk
2011 Off.
S&P+ Rk
2011 Def.
S&P+ Rk
Pace
Rk
Missouri 2-2 NR 33 37 18 69 25
Kansas State 4-0 20 44 63 65 54 36

Since the offseason, we have viewed the Kansas State game as basically the lynchpin for the 2011 season as a whole. We knew there was a possibility that Mizzou would start 2-2, and we knew that with road games versus Baylor and Texas A&M and home games versus Oklahoma State and Texas still on the slate, a 2-3 start (0-2 in conference) would be very difficult to overcome and still post a strong win total. Midterms are over, and in losing to Arizona State (barely) and Oklahoma (respectably), Mizzou got a solid B. But respectable losses don't matter much from here on out. This game will define the narrative for the rest of the season, and it would very much behoove Missouri to come out on top.

When Missouri Has The Ball…

The worm has turned in the Missouri-KSU series in recent years. KSU blew Missouri off the field for 13 years, but when Mizzou turned the tables, it was most evident when they had the ball. KSU has still figured out ways to move the ball on the Tigers, but Mizzou has scored at least 38 points in five straight contests between the two schools. It is not a coincidence that Missouri has also won five in a row.

Star-divide

Standard Downs
Mizzou
Offense
K-State
Defense
SD % Run 63.8% 53.8%
S&P+ Rk 37 34
Success Rt+ Rk 44 16
PPP+ Rk 27 27
Rushing S&P+ Rk 28 36
Passing S&P+ Rk 29 43

For the most part, Mizzou's offensive success has come from balance. Balance, of course, doesn't necessarily mean running and passing an equal amount -- it just means being able to do both. Here is a look at Mizzou's Rushing and Passing S&P (while the game was "close") in recent games versus KSU:

  • 2006: 24 rushes, 0.785 S&P; 28 passes, 1.078 S&P
  • 2007: 27 rushes, 0.656 S&P; 40 passes, 1.023 S&P
  • 2008: 19 rushes, 0.818 S&P; 24 passes, 1.061 S&P
  • 2009: 18 rushes, 0.870 S&P; 27 passes, 1.364 S&P
  • 2010: 31 rushes, 1.004 S&P; 24 passes, 0.865 S&P
Passing Downs
Mizzou
Offense
K-State
Defense
SD % Run 36.4% 31.9%
S&P+ Rk 22 47
Success Rt+ Rk 73 12
PPP+ Rk 13 75
Rushing S&P+ Rk 4 41
Passing S&P+ Rk 42 47

On standard downs, where a team's gameplan tends to be executed (or at least attempted), KSU has been rather balanced and proficient from every side. They have equally decent against both the run and the pass, slightly vulnerable to big plays but quite efficient overall. Missouri, meanwhile, has been a bit inefficient overall, but they've made up with it by breaking occasional big plays, both on the ground and in the air. This is just about as evenly-balanced a matchup as you could ask for.

If Missouri is going to derive an advantage, it will be on passing downs. Obviously that doesn't mean Mizzou wants to face too many passing downs -- PDs naturally favor the defense no matter what the rankings say -- but they will still have a chance to do some damage if or when they fall into 2nd-and-8 or 3rd-and-6 situations. KSU has been efficient but particularly vulnerable to big plays on passing downs, ranking 75th in Passing Downs PPP+. Meanwhile, Mizzou has been the opposite -- inefficient overall but capable of a huge play at any moment. Expect a higher-than-average number of rushes from Mizzou on second-and-long situations. KSU isn't so good against the run that Mizzou cannot make some noise and turn 2nd-and-long into 3rd-and-short. Plus, the KSU pass rush on passing downs is quite good (23rd in the country), so avoiding that strength by staying on the ground is probably good strategy.

(It bears mentioning, by the way, that KSU ranked 120th, dead last, in Passing Downs S&P+ last year. They have improved significantly in this regard, at least so far.)

Two years ago, Missouri pulled away from Kansas State because they had Danario Alexander and KSU did not. He scored on a couple of ridiculous, long touchdowns to open the game up (the two teams played in November 2009, after all, when Danario was enjoying one of the best months for a receiver in college football history). Breaking a couple of big plays will be a major key for the Tigers once again. As KSU showed against Baylor, if you let them stay close to you as the game progresses, they will tighten up and make your life miserable. You better make life easier on yourself with some big plays earlier in the game. This being the case, who exactly is going to step up, particularly in the passing game? L'Damian Washington again? Wes Kemp? Jerrell Jackson? If Mizzou fails to score some easy points via big play, they will have failed to take advantage of a relative KSU weakness. And KSU has proven this year that if you don't take advantage of them, they'll be more than happy to take advantage of you.

KSU players to watch:

  • LB Arthur Brown (24.5 tackles, 4.5 TFL/sacks, 1 INT). Brown was all over the place late against Baylor, seemingly making every play that mattered. Mizzou has been able to somewhat neutralize strong linebackers so far this season -- Vontaze Burfict had five tackles, one sack and multiple missed tackles against Mizzou, while Oklahoma's Tom Wort, Travis Lewis and Tony Jefferson combined for zero tackles for loss and one pass defensed.
  • CB David Garrett (17.5 tackles, 1.0 TFL/sacks, 1 INT, 1 PBU, 1 FR). Garrett was a stat hog at the safety position last year, racking up 15 tackles for loss and breaking up nine passes. He moved to cornerback to fill the largest need on the defense, and while they could certainly still use his play-making ability at safety (the Wildcats do indeed still have a bit of a big-play problem on passing downs), there's no question that the overall defense has improved, and he has been part of the reason why.

When Kansas State Has The Ball…

The formations change a bit, but it you are a comfort-in-familiarity person, then the KSU offense has to be very comforting for you. You know what Kansas State wants to do on offense, and it hasn't changed since the late-1990s. They are going to run the ball, they are going to try to play ball control, and if it works -- if you hand them a couple of turnovers like Baylor did, or if you consistently allow them to stay in 3rd-and-comfortable situations (and therefore allow them to consistently convert third downs), you are probably going to lose.

Standard Downs
K-State
Offense
Mizzou
Defense
SD % Run 72.0% 56.8%
S&P+ Rk 55 95
Success Rt+ Rk 36 108
PPP+ Rk 68 70
Rushing S&P+ Rk 50 23
Passing S&P+ Rk 70 108

K-State beat Baylor exactly the way you would imagine: by winning the turnover battle and grinding. Quarterback Collin Klein carried the ball 22 times for 141 yards (the box score says 25 for 113, but he was sacked three times, and I hate that those get counted as rushing stats -- that's why I don't count them as rushing stats), backs John Hubert and Angelo Pease added another 90 in 21 carries, and Klein (13-for-28) pretty much only passed when he had to. I was very unimpressed with the way the Baylor defense let KSU off the hook a few times on passing downs; it cost them considerably.

Passing Downs
K-State
Offense
Mizzou
Defense
SD % Run 48.4% 27.6%
S&P+ Rk 103 24
Success Rt+ Rk 84 17
PPP+ Rk 107 28
Rushing S&P+ Rk 47 51
Passing S&P+ Rk 111 21

You probably know Klein's story by now. The converted tight end moved to quarterback because he does a very good job of running the zone read and option despite, you know, being the size of a tight end. His is a really unique skill set considering his size, and K-State usually makes it work. To nobody's surprise, KSU's offense is infinitely better on standard downs, and the reason for that is simple: while Klein's arm has improved since last year, it still isn't very good. Mizzou can get away with letting KSU grind out a few first downs, but it is absolutely imperative that they shut drives down when they do manage to leverage K-State into second- or, especially, third-and-long situations.

Looking at these data tables, it doesn't take very long to spot the biggest concern: on Standard Downs, K-State's Success Rate ranks 36th in the country, and Mizzou's defense ranks 108th. Looking at the rest of the numbers, however, you see that this is basically due to pass defense. KSU's scheme is completely different from that of Arizona State or Oklahoma, and not only because they don't pass as much. But if you aren't passing a decent amount on standard downs, you are missing an opportunity to exploit Mizzou's biggest weakness. I'm curious how much KSU will attempt this. Lord knows with quotes like this, Mizzou might not necessarily be expecting it (that, or they're assuming they can stop it with minimal attention):

"They're tendencies are really leaning on the run," safety Kenji Jackson said. "It's so heavy that when they pull two guards, they're running. Every time. Those are just some keys that give us the thought that when we see that, we can come up for the run.

"We can kind of be a little aggressive against the run this week, I'd say."

Let's just say that Mizzou can overcome a play-action bomb for a touchdown, and they may be able to overcome two, but ... I'm of the makeup that this quote still made me a bit uneasy. (Then again, daring the inaccurate Klein to throw long passes and risk either interceptions or 2nd-and-10s still might not be the single-worst strategy in the world.)

KSU players to watch:

  • QB Collin Klein (47-for-85 passing, 481 yards, 6 TD, 2 INT; 503 pre-sack rushing yards, 4 TD). Klein is limited in terms of his overall skill set, but he is very good in the areas in which KSU needs a quarterback to be good. With him leading the way, KSU is quite efficient, and to date they have been rather mistake-averse.
  • WR Chris Harper (28 targets, 17 catches, 189 yards; 61% catch rate, 11.1 yards per catch, 6.8 yards per target, 35% target rate). Harper has been targeted by over one-third of Klein's passes to date, and while his proficiency has been minimal -- the average No. 1 target needs to be generating at least eight yards per target, not 6.8 -- he showed last week against Baylor that he can still come through if given the opportunity. And if KSU is to complete one of the play-action bombs I now fear, it will almost certainly either be Harper or Andre McDonald (8 targets, 4 catches, 76 yards) who pulls it in.

The Verdict

In this week's F/+ picks, you can see that Missouri is picked to win by 0.4. This is a tossup, in other words. If you want, however, you could certainly make a case that the Missouri team that earned their current F/+ rank of 33rd was not the one that will take the field now. Mizzou has improved in each of the four previous games, and more importantly than any hard-to-measure improvement, they are healthier now. Henry Josey should be joined by Kendial Lawrence and/or De'Vion Moore in the backfield. Jerrell Jackson will have had another week to develop a rapport with James Franklin. Jacquies Smith should be full-speed. Kip Edwards might finally be full-speed. If a healthier, well-rested Missouri equals a better Missouri, then this game takes shape pretty well.

Let's hope so, as I really cannot stress enough how big this game is from a Mizzou perspective. The Tigers have proven that they can play well in front of an intensely hostile crowd (which is good, because with this week's realignment news, they will be facing an extremely hostile crowd ... I mean, have you read BOTC this week? I know we suspend the Unholy Alliance during game week, but ... you guys are scaring me over there!), but they have to prove that they can slow down an efficient offense enough to officially win a big game. KSU is not built to take advantage of Missouri's single biggest weaknesses, standard downs pass defense, but they are built to win close games, and they know how to keep games close. This is going to be an incredibly intense matchup, and while Missouri has the athletes and ability to win the game, they now have to go out and prove it.

 

--------------------

A Quick Glossary

Covariance: This tells us whether a team tends to play up or down to their level of competition. A higher ranking means a team was more likely to play well against bad teams while struggling (relatively speaking) against good ones. (So in a way, lower rankings are better.) For more, go here.

F/+ Rankings: The official rankings for the college portion of Football Outsiders. They combine my own S&P+ rankings (based on play-by-play data) with Brian Fremeau's drives-based FEI rankings.

Passing Downs: Second-and-7 or more, third-and-5 or more.

PPP: An explosiveness measure derived from determining the point value of every yard line (based on the expected number of points an offense could expect to score from that yard line) and, therefore, every play of a given game.

S&P+: Think of this as an OPS (the "On-Base Plus Slugging" baseball measure) for football. The 'S' stands for success rates, a common Football Outsiders efficiency measure that basically serves as on-base percentage. The 'P' stands for PPP+, an explosiveness measure that stands for EqPts Per Play. The "+" means it has been adjusted for the level of opponent, obviously a key to any good measure in college football. S&P+ is measured for all non-garbage time plays in a given college football game. Plays are counted within the following criteria: when the score is within 28 points in the first quarter, within 24 points in the second quarter, within 21 points in the third quarter, and within 16 points (i.e. two possession) in the fourth quarter. For more about this measure, visit the main S&P+ page at Football Outsiders.

Standard Downs: First downs, second-and-6 or less, third-and-4 or less.

Success Rate: A common Football Outsiders tool used to measure efficiency by determining whether every play of a given game was successful or not. The terms of success in college football: 50 percent of necessary yardage on first down, 70 percent on second down, and 100 percent on third and fourth down.

Schizophrenia: This measures how steady a team's performances are throughout the course of a full season. Teams with a higher ranking tend to be extremely unpredictable from week to week. For more, go here.

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Comments

Display:

Wait... Wait... Wait...

I thought this a BBQ blog?

Top Heavy Beer Drinker

by DnrW on Oct 6, 2011 3:10 PM CDT reply actions  

oh, by the way

I’m headed to Memphis at the beginning of November for the Belmont-Memphis game. As an ELITIST KC BBQ GUY, where should I go for that sweet meat*? This will be my first time eating Memphis BBQ.

*I know, I know.

by kevinf on Oct 6, 2011 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rendezvous is the most famous

And when they are on, it is great. The last time I was there my ribs were dry (overdone), though. The cheese plate (cheese and sausage with Rendezvous rub) is a great starter to share.

I’ve always been a fan of Corky’s, but I haven’t been there in a while.

by AlaTiger on Oct 6, 2011 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

No prediction for the game this week?

Or has the past few days muddied up my recollection of BTBS Preview?

Top Heavy Beer Drinker

by DnrW on Oct 6, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well i'll tell you one thing...

I’m reluctant to bet against a streak…

Top Heavy Beer Drinker

by DnrW on Oct 6, 2011 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

how novel ;)

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Oct 6, 2011 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have to be honest

I am not really worried much about this game. I know that probably further enrages any BOTC folk who come to see this preview, but as someone who wasn’t a fan during the first Snyder era, all I’ve ever known is Mizzou beating K-State, and doing it without a ton of nail biting. Their one-dimensional offense plays to our strengths, and I don’t think their defense has shown enough to keep Mizzou below 30 or so. Is that a guarantee? No, it’s a road game, and it’s college football. But I’ll be very disappointed if Mizzou doesn’t win on Saturday.

by Transmogrified Tiger on Oct 6, 2011 3:17 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I tend to agree.

Yes it’s a big game, but pretty much every game left on our schedule is big. If our goal is to finish at least 2nd in conf, we have to win out. Not saying I expect that to happen, but in a conf without divisions every game is equally important. The only game I felt was an acceptable loss this year was Oklahoma (and maybe A&M on the road, but after their last two games why shouldn’t we have high hopes for that as well).

Our daughter is potty-trained, but we still have to wipe her Kansas after a Jayhawk.

by Hermus on Oct 6, 2011 6:28 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think we'll keep you under 30. I'm more concerned that we won't break 20.

If either of us gets to 31, that’s ballgame.

Hell, I think the first to 27 ends up winning this thing.

And since you weren’t there during the Snyder era, I’ll let you in on something that Bill can probably elaborate on, but that’s the fact that the only people who have the slightest idea of what Bill Snyder plans on doing any given week live inside of the Vanier Football Complex. I love what Bill C. does with these, but Snyder is just so weird in how he does things, and he’s so meticulous in his game planning, that you can run numbers over what you assume you’ll see, but odds are you’ll see something completely different.

For example, last year, if you told me we’d beat Texas by four touchdowns and throw less than five passes in the game, I would have slapped you and told you to wash your mouth out with soap. But, by God, Snyder did it. It made no sense, it was completely unpredictable, but it worked. He’s absolutely, certifiably insane. But that’s what makes him so successful; you just have no idea what to expect until trends start to pop up somewhere in the second quarter.

Bring on the Cats - Our Site
@PJ_BOTC - My Twitter
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

by Panjandrum on Oct 7, 2011 1:54 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Personally, I like it that I'm seeing Mizzou fans that aren't too worried about this game.

As Pan notes, Coach Snyder always seems to have something up his sleeve for big games. And this is certainly a big game.

"An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come." *Victor Hugo*

by K.S.B. on Oct 7, 2011 2:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

No, but it brings out a good point

that if you are expecting a win, the likelihood of your players doing the same is higher. From the quotes I’ve read it seems they are quite confident. I know people want to say the underdog role motivating is hogwash, but as KSB noted above, Snyder is most dangerous as the underdog. We can’t understand what he’s always thinking but it does play into his coaching strengths for some reason.

Bitchslapping Texas since 1997

by mjk7166 on Oct 7, 2011 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

This isn't a new thing though

Mizzou’s been favored over KSU for what, 5 years running now? Snyder was coaching last year and the year before that. And we still have a situation where Mizzou’s won all of those games with relative ease(the last 4 years, KSU has had a lead for exactly 3:23 against Mizzou, or 1.4% of those games). So what makes this year particularly different? Mizzou having a much more difficult schedule prior to this year’s game? KSU winning 3 games by a combined 7 points?

by Transmogrified Tiger on Oct 7, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

You have to look at the collective body of work

You are right that you have succeeded for 5 years running. But let’s be honest, 3 of those years were Prince and the last two under Snyder were with Prince recruits. Snyder has a history of pulling upsets if only bc of his meticulous nature and squeezing every drop of talent out of guys. OU in 2003, Texas many times and Nebraska several times are just some examples of his upsets. I truly believe Missouri will win Saturday, but I do think it will be closer than some of your fans or players think. Actually this synopsis was dead on. My point above was just that when you consider Snyder from 1989-present, he has been the underdog more often than not but has tended to overachieve and thus savor being the underdog. I do think the lines make a difference in how the players think, which may or may not affect their drive.

Bitchslapping Texas since 1997

by mjk7166 on Oct 7, 2011 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

It doesn’t matter how close your wins have been. A win is a win, and I think it would be hard to find a Tiger fan that thinks Mizzou is going to walk in and crush your team. I’m worried about the game, but I think if Mizzou plays well (especially on run defense) we can win. Either way, it should be an exciting game.

Always bet on Black and Gold!

by Wesley Stripes on Oct 7, 2011 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yea this site had intelligent fans

I’ve been on espn too much! You would think we didn’t have a prayer in this game from their perspectives.

Bitchslapping Texas since 1997

by mjk7166 on Oct 7, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

*has

Bitchslapping Texas since 1997

by mjk7166 on Oct 7, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Technically, that's not quite right.

“Just winning” a bunch of close games isn’t really very predictive for “just winning” in the future. It says something that they have come up with the plays to win all three close games they’ve played, but ignoring margin of victory is foolish. If KSU had won all three close games by 24 points instead, then I think we would all be viewing this game differently, no?

by Bill C. on Oct 7, 2011 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh definitely! But from my perspective, I’m more scared of a team that wins close games. It’s more of a team mentality, playing close intense games instead of being up by 25 or 30 at halftime and sort of coasting through the second half.

But from a general fan perspective, I can understand being more afraid of a team that wins big every week.

Always bet on Black and Gold!

by Wesley Stripes on Oct 7, 2011 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

You bring up a great point

I have said many times that if Snyder could win every game 3-0 he would be happy. I’m not trying to say we could have won our games by more because I don’t believe that. But Snyder holds back most of the play book (or all of it it seems at times) in order to show nothing on tape to future opponents. He is really bad about this, as it angered me a couple games so far with his refusal to try anything outside the box. He seemed happy after the 10-7 win over EKU, not just because we won, but bc he ran about 3 plays the whole game. Expect him to be forced to turn a few pages tomorrow to keep up with you guys.

Bitchslapping Texas since 1997

by mjk7166 on Oct 7, 2011 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Where did you get that from what I wrote?

I personally like it when our opponents fans seem to be taking us lightly, because that could mean that the other TEAM feels somewhat the same as well. That’s all that I meant with my subject line.

"An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come." *Victor Hugo*

by K.S.B. on Oct 7, 2011 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't get what point you're making here.

I tried to explain why I like seeing an opponents’ fans taking our team lightly.

"An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come." *Victor Hugo*

by K.S.B. on Oct 7, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

What I don't understand is where you get the "gives the KSU team a distinct advantage" part.

"An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come." *Victor Hugo*

by K.S.B. on Oct 7, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

You really need to upgrade your smartass radar.

To me, I could care less how KSU fans are feeling about this game. The end.

by Bill C. on Oct 7, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

I wonder if there's a store I could take it into? Been needing to get it looked at for awhile now.

"An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come." *Victor Hugo*

by K.S.B. on Oct 7, 2011 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

link?

Follow me on twitter.com/SteveCusumano

"THE EYES OF TEXAS ARE UPONNN YOUU... ALLLL THE LIVE LONG DAYYYYYY." - the genius that is @DanBeebe

by MizzouCus on Oct 6, 2011 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not trying to be too picky, but Colin Klein was a QB in high school and recruited as a QB.

After a Redshirt year under the coach who cannot be spoken about, Snyder moved him to WR (not tight end) his first year and backup QB last year. He had the QB experience to begin with so it’s not a big stretch to bring him back in as a QB. Snyder made him a WR in his first eligible year because he was so short of athletes and he needed to get Klein on the field. Many of us thought he should have been in the QB spot last year instead of Coffman, but the Old Man knows best and I don’t question much of what he does.

If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself.

by ArkieCat on Oct 6, 2011 3:46 PM CDT reply actions  

Klein was the highest rated prep QB in Colorado the year he came out (per Rivals)

He was ahead of Elway’s kid.

Bring on the Cats - Our Site
@PJ_BOTC - My Twitter
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

by Panjandrum on Oct 6, 2011 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

He was also recruited as a pro-style passer.

He had good speed for a PSP (4.6 in the forty), but that’s what he was recruited as. I think as the KSU offense begins to open up more, we’re going to see his development as a passer accelerate fairly quickly. He’ll always be a great runner, but I think the passing will come along as well.

"An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come." *Victor Hugo*

by K.S.B. on Oct 7, 2011 2:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

He was also recruited as a pro-style passer.

I never said Rivals was right about everything

Bring on the Cats - Our Site
@PJ_BOTC - My Twitter
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

by Panjandrum on Oct 7, 2011 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Woah, woah, woah, hold up.

…We have a game this week?? Since when?

Pardon The Distraction

"I like to think of myself as Miguel Paul. Generally disappointing and a waste of space, but every once in a while, WOW."- ghtd36

by CEW on Oct 6, 2011 5:14 PM CDT reply actions  

a gae-emm?

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Oct 6, 2011 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

I believe the G is silent.

Like “yogging”

Pardon The Distraction

"I like to think of myself as Miguel Paul. Generally disappointing and a waste of space, but every once in a while, WOW."- ghtd36

by CEW on Oct 6, 2011 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

why?

Pardon The Distraction

"I like to think of myself as Miguel Paul. Generally disappointing and a waste of space, but every once in a while, WOW."- ghtd36

by CEW on Oct 6, 2011 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

We'll just say...

…that with everything going on this week, they’re a little fired up about the game.

by Bill C. on Oct 6, 2011 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah

that’s a snakepit I don’t want any part of.

by jschooltiger on Oct 6, 2011 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

In defense of our community...

I think you can all understand why we’re a little miffed.

Bill, as you know, I’m an ardent fan of you and your blog, as are most of our readers. However, if the tables were turned, I’m sure most members of the RMN community would be burning us in effigy, so for some to characterize us as a ‘loony bin’ is a little extreme. It’s all a matter of perspective.

I’ll just speak for myself and say that I hold no animosity towards RMN or anyone here, personally. You’re all good dudes. You don’t erase years of goodwill in a couple of days. But I’m sure if folks took a step back and took a walk in our shoes, they’d probably see why we’re fired up. Unfortunately, the worst part of realignment is that people are moved and motivated by emotions and logic and empathy rarely come into play. You have your reasons for being excited. We have our reasons for being upset. What some here see as a slam dunk, some of us see as folly. Again, it’s perspective.

I hope if any of you are planning on attending the game in Manhattan, you have a safe and pleasant experience. Just be careful. Our community is the most rational one, so…yeah. There’s your litmus test for the tenor on Saturday.

Bring on the Cats - Our Site
@PJ_BOTC - My Twitter
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

by Panjandrum on Oct 6, 2011 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Point of order

um, we’re not all “good dudes.”

someone brought kool-ade pickles to the tailgate last year.

The sleeper has awoken. . .awakened. . .he woke up.

by SleepyFloyd7 on Oct 6, 2011 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bring on the Cats - Our Site
@PJ_BOTC - My Twitter
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

by Panjandrum on Oct 7, 2011 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

.

The problem isn’t anger or lack of empathy. The problem is that people are making it personal. I can see the K-State perspective where Mizzou is always looking over the fence at greener pastures. But I’ve also watched my University targeted by a two year smear campaign in the media, on the internet and by members of our own conference that seems to serve no other purpose than to tear us down. Kevin Keitzman was complaining today that he couldn’t understand why Mizzou had such a low opinion of its own worth. Gee, I don’t know Kevin, maybe it has something to do with everyone telling us how worthless we are. I’ve tried to be understanding about all this, but there comes a point where it goes from venting to just being jerks. The simple fact is that no one on any of these sites is responsible for any of this. Beergut didn’t pull A&M out of the conference, Snide Aside didn’t set up the LHN, and I sure as hell didn’t call Jim Delany begging for an invite. I’m as guilty as anyone in this case, considering some of my blowups yesterday, but I’m tired of being the proxy for everyone’s irrational hatred of Mizzou. We can talk about things and even have some spirited arguments, but if someone really has a problem with all that’s going on, call Brady Deaton. I’m just here to talk sports, make fun of Kansas, and perpetuate stupid meth-addled mascot memes.

by Gaknar on Oct 7, 2011 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

He said everything I should've yesterday in that post.

"An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come." *Victor Hugo*

by K.S.B. on Oct 7, 2011 2:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

One other aspect to it that Pan didn't mention...

…is that both he and I live in Kansas City. With Missouri in the Big 12, KC is a Big 12 town, and is host to my favorite sporting event, the Big 12 basketball tournament. I mean, I can see the freaking Sprint Center from my office. There is nothing better than the four days of basketball in downtown KC. And Missouri leaving messes that up, and messes up the dynamic in KC. I don’t like that. I don’t want that. And it kind of makes me angry. Not a personal anger, but just a general aggravation that some of the things we love most about sports in this region may come to an end.

We'll carry the banner high!
Bring On The Cats

by TB on Oct 7, 2011 7:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Here’s how I come down

And keep in mind, I do not like the SEC. In fact, I like disliking the SEC. The academics, the basketball, the hivemind culture, their football hype machine, the cultural stereotypes, I very much enjoy the fake superiority I can imagine over the SEC.

That said, I think even I’ve reached a point where the Big 12 is no longer a very good option. I think we can all agree on the attitude on the defections so far.

Nebraska – hypocrites who helped keep the have-nots of the conference down until the policies were only in their favor instead of extraordinarily in their favor, then left

aTm – who helped keep the have-nots of the conference down until the policies were only in their favor instead of extraordinarily in their favor AND agreed to the new Big 12, then used a pretty flimsy excuse to stir their little brother fanbase into a frenzy about leaving, giving themselves little choice but to leave

Colorado – We will miss the easy wins dude.

Now, my take on what’s happened with Mizzou is as such:

- Mizzou has actively tried to hold the Big 12 together. Deaton has taken a lot of heat from fans for the "proud members of the Big 12" lines, and they’ve voted for every last measure that would promote a stronger Big 12.

- A variety of Mizzou people(from Pinkel, to the fanbase, to the BOC if you believe some reports) got fed up with this last round of changes. Watching aTm leave, then OU and Texas actively try to leave again, and I think a collective realization was reached that the best they could hope for from the Big 12 is that somehow leverage would enable the small schools to handcuff Texas/OU until they find a way around it or just up and leave again.

- Given the above, the opportunity that arose as really the only true option for the SEC once the ACC locked it’s borders, and an aTm-esque swell of outrage from fans, Mizzou is looking elsewhere.

Now, obviously, a KSU fan might have a different interpretation of these events, and that’s fine. What gets me is that by many’s admission, KSU would do the same thing if they were afforded the opportunity(side note: do not construe this for an indicator of Mizzou’s "superiority". We all realize Mizzou’s just benefitting from geographic happenstance when it comes to this stuff). Or at the very least, the reasons people give for saying they would not do the same thing(breaking up Kansas City, for example) wouldn’t exactly be weighed quite the same were they actually to be in position to make that decision on behalf of the University. So if by and large, KSU fans would do the same thing, why would they claim to be "betrayed" by Mizzou, who is "cowardly" "abandoning" the conference? Like was mentioned, the whole topic elicits an emotional response, and I’m not saying we all have to discuss this in monotones while sipping brandy while we wear smoking jackets in the parlor. But be honest with the reasoning. It’s not righteous fury at Mizzou over these events, it’s simply jealousy over Mizzou’s geographic luck, anger at the real schools at fault for conference instability, or lamenting how the circumstances have conspired in a way that isn’t beneficial to KSU.

I would’ve been more than fine staying in the Big 12 for a long while this past June. I would’ve been fine with quickly adding BYU once aTm announced they were gone. But there is a line somewhere, and for many Mizzou fans it was 25% of the conference leaving while 33% more tried and failed to go elsewhere, that they decided it simply isn’t best served to continue to try to save a sinking ship. I truly don’t think there’s any blame to be had for acting on such logic.

by Transmogrified Tiger on Oct 7, 2011 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I like the idea of sipping brandy while wearing a smoking jacket……..

Always bet on Black and Gold!

by Wesley Stripes on Oct 7, 2011 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

And pencil thin mustaches.

Always bet on Black and Gold!

by Wesley Stripes on Oct 7, 2011 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'll be 100% honest in the fact that a lot of my anger directed towards Mizzou is probably unjustified...

I think Gaknar used the “proxy” comment fairly aptly. I think most of my anger right now is actually directed towards Mike and Gabe DeArmond, who I personally believe are using their pulpits as a propaganda campaign to rally even casual Mizzou fans towards the SEC. Gabe, I understand, because he owns a Mizzou fan site, and this will probably cause at least a spike in his business. Mike, on the other hand, has been nothing more than a Mizzou fan boy parading as a beat reporter for the past few decades. His complete lack of professionalism and his total disregard for objectively looking at a situation just completely and totally disgusts me. Bill and the rest of the RMN crew are a million times more logical, rational, AND professional than either of the DeArmonds will ever be, and it’s unfortunate that he does not have the reach.

It’s one thing for a Missouri fan to logically look at the situation and say, “I would like to leave the Big 12 for any viable alternative,” like you just did. I have no issue with your reasoning and justification. It’s the Mizzou fans that I speak with on a daily basis here in Kansas City that are just absolutely filled with DeArmond and Jack Harry propaganda that seem to be the most feverish about this, and THAT is where my anger truly lies.

Honestly, and this sounds horrible, but I want to see you fail just so I can listen to Mike DeArmond and Jack Harry have a pity party that makes them look like the complete and total buffoons that they are.

So, if this seems like it’s personal against Mizzou, it’s really not. It’s my hatred for your Kansas City media representatives that’s driving the majority of my vitriol. Anything left is just hurt feelings because I love the sports atmosphere in this town, and I’d hate to see my 18 month old son grow up not knowing a Big 12 Tournament that had the electricity of the ones we knew growing up.

Bring on the Cats - Our Site
@PJ_BOTC - My Twitter
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

by Panjandrum on Oct 7, 2011 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Very understandable. I think it’s hard to think that way towards the DeArmonds since they’re usually saying things we want to hear. So perspective is sometimes skewed.

Always bet on Black and Gold!

by Wesley Stripes on Oct 7, 2011 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Obviously the Dearmonds were correct...

…in reporting a couple of weeks ago that there was serious interest being shared between Mizzou and the SEC. But yeah, the tone of the reporting has been extremely off-putting, even to some Missouri fans (i.e. me). I’ve known Gabe for a long time, he’s a good guy, and he really is a strong reporter (he was also the one still showing major skepticism about the “OMG PAINTER’S A DONE DEAL!” rumors to the very end), but that doesn’t mean he isn’t prone to what I will conservatively call hyperbole from time to time.

by Bill C. on Oct 7, 2011 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

And I wonder how much we are to blame for that. Sometimes when I read a story I imply emphasis when there is none. Being excited about a story doesn’t mean the reporter wrote the article in an exciting way (implying excitement on his/her part). I’m not saying this actually happens, but it is food for thought.

Also, a lot of what I read is either paraphrased here, or is a link to a reporter’s twitter comment. So, how much do we differentiate between actual reporting, and a reporter’s excitement or personal feeling conveyed through twitter?

If this is all nonsense, just tell me, lol.

Always bet on Black and Gold!

by Wesley Stripes on Oct 7, 2011 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

In defense of our community...

“Loony bin” is mild compared to what’s being said over there.

Look, I understand the anger, disappointment and disdain for how things have been handled. But making Mizzou the scapegoat is simply inaccurate.

by mu211 on Oct 7, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

You have to understand that the majority of our fans live on the KC side of your state...

And we’re being inundated with the worst you have to offer in terms of media representatives.

The pity party that DeArmond and Jack Harry are putting out there is an embarrassment to Missouri, and if I were Mike Alden or Brady Deaton, I would have called them and told them to stop making Missouri look like a bunch of whiners.

Not that Missouri is whining, but DeArmond and Harry are doing enough whining for everyone. So, it’s easy for us to make you look like a scapegoat when all we’re getting on our side of the fence is one big pity party.

Bring on the Cats - Our Site
@PJ_BOTC - My Twitter
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

by Panjandrum on Oct 7, 2011 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

I have lived in KC and it has a unique variety of sports fans.

This variety with all the KState, KU, Missouri and a fair amount of fans for other Big 12 schools leads to a unique dynamic that seems to have the media divided into different camps for each school. I loved living in KC because I got so much coverage of the Big 12 locally but it always seemed like each university had their media guy spewing his opinions. In a lot of ways I think KSate has had the short end of the stick because they sometimes where looked over for the coverage on KU and Mizzou. All this is just my opinion and how I see the hurt feelings.

"The power of the force has stopped you, you hosers."

by drewder on Oct 7, 2011 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

I live in KC and I'm a diehard Mizzou fan

I think Mike DeArmond is a douche (though, I enjoy reading his stuff, simply because it’s Mizzou stuff) and I think that Jack Harry is an embarrassment and I refuse to even listen to someone telling me what he said.

But, DeArmond is a newspaper version of Keitzman – whom I refuse to listen to.

Of course, I’m on RMN because I want some form of measured, accurate reporting of my favorite team.

Rational Mizzou Talk, whether you like us or not.

by Andy--01 on Oct 7, 2011 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

I understand why people don't dig KK...

He’s a shock jock. He’s a hundred times better than Nick Wright, who is a certified Chocopockets, but I get why people wouldn’t like him.

I guess a lot of my disgust towards Mike DeArmond comes from the fact that you actually have a cheerleader in a major newspaper. We have the same KU grad covering our beat in our two largest markets, and our Rivals site is more interested in writing fluff pieces on third-string linebackers than they are in writing actual news or covering recruiting.

And, unlike you guys, our SB Nation site sucks and the writers are a bunch of know nothing hacks.

Hey, wait a minute…

Bring on the Cats - Our Site
@PJ_BOTC - My Twitter
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

by Panjandrum on Oct 7, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think we are making Missouri the scapegoat.

We just are upset at you guys for your particular part at this particular time.

I think everyone at BOTC would agree that Texas, OU, aTm and the Nubs share like 98% of the blame.

But we’ve already vented at them.

Would you like some Freys with that?

by ChrisP Wildcat on Oct 7, 2011 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

I just want it to be 2:30 on

Saturday.

FOOOOOTTTTTBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!

by tigers and chiefs fan on Oct 6, 2011 8:28 PM CDT reply actions  

34-21, Tigers . . .

. . . from where I sit. Course I am a long way off, and my eyes are growing dim.

Go Mizzou – let’s sweep the rest of the conference on our way southeast.

by countrycal on Oct 6, 2011 10:42 PM CDT reply actions  

This game is so huge

For one, you have all of the off the field crap going on stoking the fire of hugeness. But the main thing is a loss here could send this season off the ledge pretty quickly. It’s been a long long time since Mizzou has had a losing record at any point in a season and while 2-2 doesn’t have a bad loss, 2-3 will start to look kind of bad. Mizzou has had two opportunities for signature wins and missed them both, which means we (as of yet) don’t have any room to slip up in the “lose one they shouldn’t” game and still have a good season.

I dunno, I’ve just got a funny feeling about this game. Not a bad or good one, just a general feeling of really really really really not wanting to lose.

by shaffe on Oct 7, 2011 3:00 AM CDT reply actions  

As PJ said above, Snyder is terrific at doing weird stuff

Not all of it works (do you remember that awful fumble-rooski stupidity last year?), but I think all the gloves will be off for this game on offense. I wouldn’t be surprised to see KSU come out and run 5 wide initially, or line up in heavy-I formation. MU has more talent, and I don’t think either side has a coaching advantage. KSU has homefield, but that won’t startle MU after two road-games already.

I think MU wins it, 31-21.

"If you don't want to work, become a reporter. That awful power, the public opinion of the nation, was created by a horde of self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditch digging and shoemaking and fetched up journalism on their way to the poorhouse." - Mark Twain

by Sean T on Oct 7, 2011 8:45 AM CDT reply actions  

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