Since we cannot even pretend to match the entertainment value of last night's karma thread, we're not even going to try. Instead, two questions; easy in, easy out.
1 - Knowing what we know after yesterday's incredible Miami allegations, do you think Frank Haith will get fired before ever coaching a game for Missouri?
2 - Just your personal opinion: should he get fired?
The Beef: No I don’t think he will
Too early to tell, I am thinking yes he should be fired, but I imagine we will allow the process to play out some before making that decision.
SleepyFloyd7: 1 - It depends on what he told Mike Alden in 2 conversations.
The Hire (late Spring 2011) - Alden: I am sticking my neck out for you with this hire. Please tell me now if there is anything that I will find out during your tenure at my University that will make me regret that decision.
The Carpet (Yesterday) - Is this true? What else is there?
If Alden was lied to (and it can be substantiated to his satisfaction) then Haith is gone.
2 - The deck was stacked against Frank from the moment he was hired. He has done a remarkable job since then of winning over the fan base - saying all of the right things, bringing in a killer staff, and getting looks from the right kind of players.
BUT these kind of allegations have a way of sticking to you (unless you are coated in Calipari). If this imbroglio begins to affect ticket sales, booster involvement (the good and essential kind) or recruiting, then - fair or not - Mizzou should cut losses and ask for his resignation.
/ kills me to say it, because I am a step-back-from-the-ledge kind of guy.
Doug: 1 - I doubt he gets fired before a single game. The NCAA takes a long time to investigate anything (see Ohio State) and make a ruling. We won't see a ruling from Indy until probably the spring at the earliest.
2 - I don't know if he should be fired, but it certainly doesn't bode well for the Missouri basketball program. If the allegations about Haith are true, even if they pale in comparison to the rest of the allegations, keeping him in Columbia doesn't make a lot of sense.
Michael Atchison: Gary Parrish has a good take on the question at hand.
If the allegation is corroborated, he should be (and will be) fired. If it’s not corroborated, he shouldn’t be (and won’t be). There will be a lot more fireworks around Navin Johnson (er, Nevin Shapiro) and Miami before this all shakes out. Hang on.
The Karma Thread was spectacular. I tried to read some of it out loud to my wife, but I couldn’t talk through the tears.
The Beef: The best really was the guy who admitted to making his wife rec his captions to win the contests. Just tremendous…but I was doing the same while The Queen was bathing The Princess. I could barely make it through a bunch of them.
Michael Atchison: There’s a comment just posted (9:21 EDT) where the confessor created a new name to post because of the nature of the confession.
The Beef: Yeah…just saw that one…I am skipping over the multi-rec’d post before that because…well…I am
Doug: Hey, has anyone asked Dave's Sister if she has anything she'd like to confess?
You know, for karma.
Bill C.: If she were to start naming names, it would make Nevin Shapiro look as innocent as, well, Navin Johnson.
ZouDave: No on both counts.
(30 minutes later...)
Bill C.: Oh dear...
"The things I saw Lance Leggett do to Sebastian with the business end of a flare gun would make DMX blush."
SleepyFloyd7: That guy is on flipping fire. I might also be interested in having some pay the Brittish Museum $15K to let me poop on a mummy.
Doug: Say what you will, but a t-shirt cannon and bocce balls sounds like the start of a bitchin' weekend.-
And a felony conviction, or 12.
ghtd36: Hello, gents.
1- No, I don't think Frank Haith will be fired. Let's not act like Missouri wasn't already on the NCAA's speed dial; this isn't necessarily going to change anything about the culture around Missouri. And really, if season ticket holders or boosters stop giving money to the program because of this, well, I question their commitment from the outset.
2- No, I don't think Frank Haith should be fired, but this should be taken as an opportunity to let him know he is on thin ice. By all accounts, the Missouri compliance department is among the best in the nation; Haith should become aware of that and have it perfectly clarified that one screw-up and he's gone.
"As a gag on Donna Shalala, we implanted one of her ovum in Bubba Sparxxx. And that's how Ke$ha was born."
"At one point, Vernon Carey had me smuggling in 50 gallons of leaded gasoline to him a week. Goddamn that guy could drink."
D-Sing: 1. Will he get fired before ever coaching a game? No. Even though this thing in process already with the NCAA, these things take time. We have until at least Bragging Rights before we have to worry about whether we have a head coach or not.
2. Should he get fired? If he shows up in the NOA from the NCAA, then it has to at least be considered. Given our status as a repeat offender, we can't really have someone who has been accused of violations running our program. At the very least, it is a perception issue as someone mentioned upthread.
I just hate that this might give rise back to the "Fire Alden" crowd. I've heard that rumbling already.
SleepyFloyd7: In related news...
Michael Atchison: Greg, I’m not quite sure what this is supposed to mean: "Let's not act like Missouri wasn't already on the NCAA's speed dial." If the $10,000 allegation is proven, do you think he keeps his job?
I certainly don’t want to prejudge any of this. More facts will come out. But now that the NCAA is involved, it gets really real. The worst sin in college sports is to fail to tell the whole truth to NCAA investigators (and for the NCAA’s purposes, Mizzou’s staff qualifies as NCAA investigators at this point). Haith has to tell them everything he knows right now. If he doesn’t, and contrary facts come to light – and they always come to light – he gets hit with an unethical conduct charge. The most important thing now is to be truthful and to cooperate (and to be perfectly clear, I am not in any way suggesting that Frank Haith has not been truthful or cooperative to this point; we’re just talking about the various ways this can shake out).
ghtd36: My point is that Missouri is already on the NCAA's radar; it's not like this is going to cause a paradigm shift in how closely the NCAA looks at Missouri. Quin Snyder politely got Mizzou on the NCAA's watch list; past allegations -- and that's the key point: past allegations -- are only problematic if you let them continue at your institution. If Mike Alden believes, as I am wont to believe, that the Missouri compliance department can make sure that this was an isolated incident, then I see no reason why Haith should be fired.
Doug: Mr. Tepper, Kelvin Sampson on a party-line call for you.
Michael Atchison: Sorry, but if a coach is shown to have been complicit in paying a player $10,000, you don’t have the luxury of treating it like "an isolated incident." That will come with a "show cause" penalty attached, and the coach’s subsequent school wants no part of that. Even without the penalty, you want no part of that.
D-Sing: Although I am amused that allegedly the coaches tried to give the money back to the guy a couple of years ago.
ghtd36: So, hypothetically, John leaves Corporation A to work for Corporation B. A couple of months later, Corporation B finds out that John was involved in illegal practices while working at Corporation A. John, contrite, comes clean and tells the truth, assuring Corporation B that it's no longer an issue.
You fire John? John simply loses all right to work?
The Beef: If the illegal practices which were violated at Corp A are the same which potentially govern his job at Corp B, I could see where you have more of a case than you evidently perceive.
Bill C.: Corporation B hired him with no knowledge of the illegal practices at Corporation A. If they had knowledge of the situation, they probably wouldn't have hired him. So yes, that would be, to me, grounds for releasing him.
ghtd36: Even if he's the best man for the job? Even if you already have far superior safeguards to illegality in place than Corporation A did?
The Beef: I would say his actions at Corp A dictate he may not have been the best man for the job once all the cards were uncovered.
Bill C.: Correct. If whatever he did at Corporation A would have probably precluded him from being considered the "best man for the job" at Corporation B (as Haith's illegal activities would have done with the Missouri job), then he isn't actually the best man for the job.
Michael Atchison: The fact of his previously undisclosed conduct at Corporation A disqualifies him from being the best man for the job.
Bernie Madoff comes clean, tells the truth, and assures you that his past behavior is no longer an issue. Do you still let him manage your money?
D-Sing: Even if he is the best man for the job, if he broke a major rule while in his prior job that would have been grounds for dismissal if he was still in the first job, then yes, he can be fired (or asked to resign) at his second job.
This wasn't buying someone a bagel and a Diet Coke; this was being in the loop about an athlete being paid $10,000 [which makes said student athlete ineligible] and then technically lying when he had to sign his NCAA Compliance form before the season saying that everyone was good to go.
Remember, part of what Ohio State used to throw Tressel under the train was he lied on the compliance form because his players weren't eligible and he knew it.
ghtd36: Maybe I'm too forgiving. (#humblebrag) If he's straight with me and tells me that yes, this happened, and yes, I realize that I'm gone if anything's not by-the-book from here on out, I don't see a problem with keeping him on.
The Beef: Perception is reality. While I agree that I could believe that Haith would never do it again, and that we have the pieces in place and do NOT have the environment in which it COULD happen again…the perception is that he is a cheater. That becomes the reality and it gets attached to our program (however unfairly).
ghtd36: My point is that obviously the culture around Miami had something to do with it. If the compliance department at Miami were breathing down Haith's neck -- as it apparently would be at Missouri -- I highly doubt he would have been willing to risk a violation. It seems to me that the culture was lax enough to create an environment where this could happen. Don't get me wrong: Haith is by no means blameless. But I guess I just have a lot of trust in the post-Snyder compliance department to create a culture very much unlike what Haith operated in at Miami.
Bill C.: I don't think you're wrong in believing that. I just think it would be wrong to keep him if he lied/hid previous wrongdoing that would have prevented him from doing the job in the first place. I firmly believe that Mizzou has a top-notch compliance department; it's just that there are a lot of people we could have hired in April who weren't (allegedly) involved in shady dealings.
I also don't think Haith ends up getting fired, simply because I doubt anything can be firmly proven. You can't fire a coach because he had a couple of pictures taken and exchanged some texts with a booster. You can only really fire him if it's proven that he "acknowledged" and was keenly aware that said booster paid $10K for a recruit. Acknowledgement is kind of hard to prove. But if it is proven ... he should be gone.
The Beef: Your trust in our compliance department is not unfounded or unworthy. I just think your focus is slightly off here. If he committed some wrong-doing (and if he did, it would be of the fairly serious variety), then it would have and SHOULD have precluded him from our search. If he did, he would have HAD to have lied to us along the way about it. Those two pieces alone are more than enough for us to be able to let him go.
ZouDave: Yeah I think the main thing here is that Corp A and Corp B are in the exact same business.
If I, as an IT Professional, was found to be using my admin rights on the network to spy on people’s email then I can pretty well guarantee I’m forfeiting my rights to continue to be an IT Professional at other companies. However, if my next job was as a construction worker I hardly see how what I did as an IT professional would be relevant.
SleepyFloyd7: The timing of all of this has to piss off ESPN. They are currently airing a series on how to fix the NCAA, which now seems hopelessly antiquated.
ZouDave: She just turned 39 yesterday. Does that count?
Doug: Well... how many times has she turned "39"?
ZouDave: This is indeed the first time she turned 39.
The Beef: But certainly not the first time she turned something with a "9" in it.
ZouDave: Eh, you’re reaching on that one. You can do better. I expect better.
SleepyFloyd7: A football team could conceivable have 20 Nines on it.
And there must be THOUSANDS of football teams.
(An hour later...)
ghtd36: In the interest of fairness, for the cyborgs that will read this in 500 years to better understand the species they overtook for control of the earth, I feel it's necessary to note that the Pirates -- the team we once lauded in this very space for being in first place late in the season -- are now 13 games out of first place.
Bill C.: Jesus, man, words hurt.
The Beef: In fairness to them, they got screwed a few weeks ago and tanked…and Milwaukee has won 18 of 20
D-Sing: "I didn't know Pittsburgh still had a team."
"Yes, ma'am. Uniforms and every."
Meanwhile, I need to get back to researching for tonight's fantasy draft.
ZouDave: I still maintain the Major League remake will be made about the Royals.
D-Sing: Ah, but who has been more futile over the years since the original came out? It's a close call, isn't it?
ZouDave: KC hasn’t been to the playoffs since 1985, meaning we’re approaching 30 years. One of the lines in "Major League" said by Jake Taylor is:
"…but, since we haven’t won a pennant in over 30 years nobody recognizes us; not even in our own home town."
Pittsburgh was in the playoffs in the ‘90s.
D-Sing: Yes, but that's more a function of the change in playoff setups. It's hard to compare across eras, but the real funk for the Royals didn't start until '96. I mean, yes, no playoffs since '85 sucks, but there were several years over .500 in there before '96.
The Pirates, after the '92 playoffs, went below .500 and still haven't recovered. Or at least they had kind of this season before reality (and the worst blown call of all time) set in.
But the Royals have had more 100 loss seasons.
Yeesh. Why not do a remake as a side by side look at both of these franchises, with them meeting in the World Series as the final act?
ZouDave: True, the Royals weren’t completely useless for a couple of seasons following 1985 (1989 especially when they won 92 games and had the Cy Young winner, but finished 7 games behind the A’s). Still, aside from 1989, the highest number of wins KC has had in a season since 1985 is 84. They’ve been at .500 or better 7 times since 1985, but only once post-strike. They’ve lost 90+ games 10 times since the strike, and we’re almost certain to get there again this year.
Pittsburgh has been outright bad, don’t get me wrong. But their 3-year stretch from 1990-1992 is better than any 3-year stretch the Royals have had in the last 25 years. Now, they haven’t had a winning season since then but they’ve only lost 100 games twice since 1985. The Royals have done it 4 times since 2000. They’ve lost 90+ games 9 times since the strike.
While Pittsburgh has the longest streak of losing seasons going, Kansas City has lost more games over that time frame since Pittsburgh last had a winning season.
So, yes, might as well make it about both teams. They’re just awful. Combine the two franchises for the last 25 years, you still won’t get a playoff team more than a couple of times.
(30 minutes later...)
ghtd36: OK, look, I can recognize that my idea that Frank Haith shouldn't be fired is a minority opinion. I understand and accept that. We can agree to disagree.
But this idea that Mike Alden should be fired is really, really, really stupid.
Bill C.: Well ... yeah.
D-Sing: Can someone help me out, since I live in the middle of the desert and my greatest goals for most days during the summer is to simply not melt and try to take less than three showers a day:
Why, exactly, is there a negative sentiment against Alden? What, pray tell, do people want?
Bill C.: 1) ADs can be blamed for even more than offensive coordinators.
2) I assume the whole "He pushed Norm out" thing, be it 0%, 50% or 100% true, was a treasonable offense in many Missourians' eyes.
The Beef: Fired Norm
Fired Quin…well..or had someone else fire Quin
Did not hire Painter
Did not hire Barnett
Screwed over long-time season ticket holders by not allowing them to keep their seats when moving to Mizzou Arena (despite their not having previously maintained the proper donation levels)
Got in bed with Bill Laurie
Bill C.: Ooh, forgot about Barnett. And don't forget Bob Huggins.
And yes, forcing the "Missourah" is indeed a fireable offense.
D-Sing: So his biggest crimes are pronunciation and trying to run a clean athletic department?
Excuse me as I roll my eyes while making a D.W.M.
ZouDave: Driving While Mastur...
D-Sing: Along those lines: Dismissive Wanking Motion
ghtd36: Drinking While Melting?
Is that a bad guess?
(30 minutes later...)
Bill C.: And by the way ... having perused other stops on the net today, let me just thank everybody for contributing to the simple fact that Rock M is not like ... other stops on the net today. There is actual humor and conversation, not just pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks pitchforks and rage.
Michael Atchison: Speaking of Pitchfork, they gave the Karma Thread a 9.8 and said it far eclipses Watch the Throne as the cultural event of the year.
SleepyFloyd7: I missed that because I was mesmerized by their review of !!!.
Michael Atchison: It’s confusing when you put the period after !!!
That’s a different band entirely.