The truth about academics, the B1G, the SEC, and Missouri.
by Kpz1234 on Sep 19, 2011 12:06 AM CDT
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There has been a ton of debate recently over conference realignment. I don't think it's a secret that a majority of the fanbase wants to end up in the Big Ten based on culture, geography and academics. However, when looking closely at the academic standings of our school and other schools as ranked by U.S. News & World Report, it's time we put to bed the notion that our academics would suffer in the SEC.
For purposes of fairness, I used the last 12 team Big 12 lineup, a commonly proposed Big 10 lineup, and a theoretical SEC lineup.
After the jump...
Big 12 (academic average: 100)
Texas: 45
Texas A&M: 58
Baylor: 75
Missouri: 90
Colorado: 94
Iowa State: 97
Kansas: 101
Oklahoma: 101
Nebraska: 101
Oklahoma State: 132
Kansas State: 143
Texas Tech: 160
Common Mizzou fan-proposed B1G (academic average: 51)
Northwestern: 12
Notre Dame: 19
Michigan: 28
Wisconsin: 42
Illinois: 45
Penn State: 45
Ohio State: 55
Purdue: 62
Minnesota: 68
Iowa: 71
Indiana: 75
Missouri: 90
Nebraska: 101
Theoretical SEC (academic average: 95)
Vanderbilt: 17
Texas A&M: 58
Florida: 58
Georgia: 62
Alabama: 75
Auburn: 82
Missouri: 90
Tennessee: 101
South Carolina: 111
Kentucky: 124
LSU: 128
Arkansas: 132
Ole Miss: 143
Mississippi State: 157
Conclusion: OUR ACADEMIC STANDING WOULD IMPROVE FROM OUR CURRENT CONFERENCE IF WE JOINED THE SEC. They are a better academic conference than the Big 12.
Not to mention, we'd be one of the worst academic schools in the Big Ten. No wonder they aren't falling all over themselves to invite us.
Get over your perceived belief that the SEC doesn't care about education. Sheesh.
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I think there's another thing worth mentioning.
Large state schools whether they are in Michigan, California, New Mexico, Montana, Alabama or any other state are always going to be good schools. There is too much money pouring in from state coffers for it to be otherwise. And yes, some states may have more money than others, but states with more money have more quality schools. California doesn’t dump every dime budgeted for higher education into one or two schools and neither does any other state.
The whole idea that SEC schools are so inferior comes from the idea that Southerners are inherently more stupid than anyone else in the country. It’s pretty much that simple and if there is some other reason I’d really like for someone to give me some documentation on that. I’m very curious to see all the ample facts and figures that prove SEC schools are crappy. I’d like to show them to my state legislators so we can rectify the situation so if you could go ahead and forward that to me I’d really be appreciative. It’s 2011 people so let’s drop the stereotypes.
And yes this is all coming from a man who went to the University of Alabama, which all intelligent people know is comprised of nothing more than the poor ignorant dregs of society. If anyone from the University of Missouri, which all intelligent people know is comprised of nothing else than the finest minds humanity can offer, would like to argue with my point then I await your infinite wisdom on the subject.
It's all about stereotypes.
Everyone in the South is missing two teeth and is a hick and brews their own shine out back. Everyone in Missouri cooks meth and doesn’t care about college sports and buys porn. (well, Missouri does lead the nation in meth busts, that’s for sure).
A lot of the fans are having a hard time coming to grips that the Big Ten (who has already turned down our school TWICE) might do it again. I think that’s what you are seeing here. And every fanbase has some folks that make the rest of the fanbase look bad. That’s life.
When our fans go to Bryant-Denny and when your fans come to Faurot Field, that’s when a lot of this crap ends. Because, at the end of the day, we’re all just people who love college football. And this realignment stuff throws off what we know, what our parents knew, and what their parents knew.
"When among evil companions, try to fit in." - Wild Bill Donovan
Well if you folks are into meth.....
then you’ll fit right in ;)
I’d like to see Mizzou in the SEC from a competitive standpoint. The travel would be more difficult for fans, but there doesn’t seem to be any good options that don’t have that caveat.
If you don’t think that there are very real differences between the attitude in SEC country toward funding government and government institutions like public schools and the attitude in other parts of the country, you’re deluding yourself. The gap with the south and the midwest might be smaller than the gaps with other parts of the country, but it is real.
by KSinDC on Sep 19, 2011 7:05 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I won't get into the politics of taxation rates and economic policy, but you are still missing the point.
Regardless of how much money a state like Alabama collects in comparison to a state like New York it doesn’t make a great difference in the quality of the institution within a particular state.
Just because California has more revenue and a liberal approach to funding education it doesn’t mean necessarily that the schools are stronger. If that was so then every single public college in California should be better than every school in a place like Alabama and that just isn’t the case. It’s not true when comparing any state. And as I was saying earlier these ideas are fed more by the stereotype that people in the South don’t give a flip about education than it is anything else. No one ever questions the preconceived notions. Everyone just goes along with whatever convention they have come to recognize without ever considering all the mechanics.
When it comes to secondary education you will find kids from Alabama leaving high school and going to some of the best schools in the country just like you will find that everywhere else. There are graduates from UA heading off to pursue graduate level and doctoral work at fine schools all over the country. And you certainly have professors teaching at Alabama and everywhere else who trained in Ivy League schools, Big Ten schools, SEC schools, ACC schools, and every other conceivable stop along the way.
And as I commented below there are always differences in qualitative and quantitative stats in whichever category you are looking to rank. The differences between quality of education from one state to another is not that great even if there is some measurable way to say one is technically “better” than another.
There are differences, and they are measurable.
There are real and measurable differences between flagship higher education schools in the industrial midwest and south. You can look at any metric you want: research productivity, total research, membership in the National Academy of Sciences, standardized test scores of the incoming class, attainment of Rhodes, Fulbright, Marshall and other scholarships etc.
You make two different points: 1) the Southern schools aren’t crap: there are professors doing very good work and students getting very good educations. That is undeniably true. 2) the idea that Southern schools are inferior is a product of regional stereotypes. This is undeniably false. There are objective measures, and, across the board, they show the Big Ten state schools are better than the SEC state schools.
Point number 1 is a good one and should be made more often, but when you combine it with point number 2, you come off as a homer and the impact of point 1 is lost.
To take the California example, no, not every school in California is great. But at the high end you’ve got Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA and probably others that are global powerhouse brands and that don’t really have an equivalent in the deep South.
This isn’t a knock on the south, and it doesn’t mean it’s a worse place. It’s friendly, with great food and music, and produces a lot of world’s best football… California has some great restaurants, but it just isn’t the food equivalent of Louisiana.
And all of this adds up to the quantifiable differences KSinDC is talking about.
Stereotypes aside there are reasons the North Easter schools generally have higher academic ratings
The Northeaster states tend to be richer. If you look at federal income tax collected per person (so the tax rate is the same in every state) the top 10 states are Delaware, Connecticut, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Nebraska, Illinois, and Arkansas. The bottom 10 are West Virginia, Mississippi, New Mexico, South Carolina, Montana, Maine, Alabama, Kentucky, Arizona, and Utah. (2007 numbers, link). A richer population means more tax dollars available for public institutions, and more wealthy students for private ones to draw in. If you add in that southern states have typically had lower tax rates, that means even less revenue available for public universities there.
Also, these income patterns have been around a LONG time – the South lost the civil war largely because at that time the North already had an industrialized mechanized economy, while the South was largely agricultural and pre-industrial. And this matters because academic ratings have a LOT of momentum to them. Part of that is just because reputations are slow to change, but part of it is also that reputations are self-fulfilling. If you have a stellar reputation then people want to work for you, so you tend to get your pick of the cream of the academic crop in the job market each year. Once you’ve got great researchers working for you they tend to bring in grants and awards and resources, and publish the big papers, which makes your institution even more famous – it’s a lot like college athletics, as unto them who have shall be given.
The stereotypes unfairly reinforce these perceptions, true, but they aren’t, ultimately, the source of them.
Um...that is not "truth"
That is perception based upon one set of arbitrary rankings.
While our academic STANDING or PERCEPTION might improve with a move to the SEC, the money included in the CIC would mean our actual ACADEMICS would improve with a move to the BIG.
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by The Beef on Sep 19, 2011 6:50 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
And really, the perception would not improve either
US News & World Reports are most widely used for people to support their preconceived opinions in a forum like this. They don’t actually sway anyone. No one thinks “Ole Miss is a terrible academic school” and then thinks “Oh, guess I was wrong then” when told their USNWR rating. People are still going to think that the SEC is a joke academically. I personally don’t think they’re wrong. But really, that’s a very small part of why the SEC is a terrible idea, just like the hyper competitive football is a very small part of why it’s a terrible idea.
by Transmogrified Tiger on Sep 19, 2011 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Money included in the CIC?
You realize the CIC does not dole out funds to individual school, right? The CIC is simply a consortium to share research findings; each university is still responsible for generating their own research grants.
The entire difference between the Big 12 and the SEC in these calculations is the difference in the ranking of the one private institution. Vanderbilt is ranked 60 spots higher than Baylor. Divided over 12 teams, that’s 5 spots — which is the difference between Big 12 and SEC here.
Based on USNWR (which are pretty crappy rankings, and only reflect the undergraduate level), the public schools in the conference are the same. If you look at more highly regarded rankings, like ARWU, I think you’ll find that the Big 12 scores higher, although I haven’t done the calculation.
I look at it like this
The B1G has higher ranked schools on that list than the SEC
I want Missouri to be among the best company possible. Am I saying that SEC schools are crappy? No, but I want the best conference we can get. And until the B1G gives a clear NO, I refuse to assume we don’t get an invite
You can call it “having a hard time coming to grips with the fact that the B1G might turn us down again” but it doesn’t make sense to pursue a back-up option before the top-choice conference makes a decision
It's an attitude like this
That makes a lot of SEC fans not really have open arms for Mizzou.
by Durdens Wrath on Sep 20, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Thank god he doesn't speak for anyone but himself.
"When among evil companions, try to fit in." - Wild Bill Donovan
If you think the B1G is better, then wait for them.
But I would suspect that you know that your football team would be average in the B1G and would be the bottom of the barrel in the SEC. We don’t want you in the SEC. The SEC desires to remain the best conference in the nation, and you would be a huge downgrade. Please please stay out.
by Alabamanator on Sep 20, 2011 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Huh?
the B1G and would be the bottom of the barrel in the SEC
That’s a weird statement considering that over the last decade the Big Ten has a winning record against the SEC in non-BCS bowl games. Or are Capital One and Outback Bowl participants too high in the rankings?
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 21, 2011 1:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Do you know what makes up these rankings?
How did U.S News score these schools?
"I like to think of myself as Miguel Paul. Generally disappointing and a waste of space, but every once in a while, WOW."- ghtd36
"The Beef" has it correct.
The reason Missouri would stand to improve itself academically in the B1G isn’t because the schools are so much “smarter”. The number of tangental comments which have mentioned anecdotes of how somebody so-and-so knew was dumb and still got a degree from School X are galling and show a complete failure to grasp the concept of academic “strength”. The improvement isn’t one of perception with the B1G, it’s actually measurable in the form of shared resources and increased potential for obtaining grant money through the CIC. It’s also not a conversation about undergraduate programs. Yes, those are important to B1G universities, but almost all of the money in higher education (yes, this is still a business decision) is coming from the power professional schools and the major research-based graduate programs. Penn State’s academic star has risen greatly since joining the conference 20 years ago, there’s little evidence to suggest the same wouldn’t be true of any other school.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 19, 2011 11:55 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
That was said far better than I did
You must have gone to a B1G school :-)
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yes yes yes
exactly.
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Membership in the CIC is a measureable advantage.
That much is true and I would like to see something like that in place for SEC schools, but the Big Ten is not going to just let anyone into the fold. Research dollars are precious and if they feel a school like Missouri or Kansas or anyone else would benefit more by being in the CIC than the tangible benefit they bring to the CIC then I have a hard time believing they’ll open up a new slot.
Also, the USNWR has been a reliable source for rankings for quite some time now. There are a myriad of factors that contribute to the rankings, but regardless of what factors you use there will always be a difference between quantitative and qualitative rankings. Simply ranking schools 1-10 or 1-100 doesn’t give you any real indication as to the value of the academic experience. All it tells you is that school #100 is in some way weaker than school #1. It’s human nature to look at rankings like that and assume that school #1 is 100 times better than school #100, but such rankings are inherently incapable of providing such information.
If a professor is teaching a course with 100 students and after having given a test we discover that 50% of the students made an A, another 20% made a B, and another 20% made a C, and the final 10% failed then we don’t assume that student #50 performed significantly poorer than student #1 on the list because in this case we are using a qualitative ranking.
I’ll also say that USNWR has a separate ranking for Graduate level programs, but don’t expect any significant differences. Think about it. The same professors who spend time teaching undergraduate courses are the ones teaching graduate courses. Research dollars are used much more for graduate level study than undergraduate study and are the driving force behind paying professors. A professor’s primary job at a research institution is to research and “create new knowledge” and teaching undergraduate courses is only one part of his or her job. This is one of the reasons you will come across professors who simply don’t give a rip about you and that’s because they really aren’t paid to do that.
In addition, a university is at least as committed to providing strong undergraduate level programs as they are graduate programs. A university that produces a #70 ranking in one area isn’t all of a sudden going to produce a #10 in the other.
Another consideration is the fact that if you really want to break it down then each department within a university has a different ranking when compared with the same department at another school. Within one university you can have departments of vastly varying qualities and rankings. The idea of ranking the overall quality of the school is a little ambiguous, but it could be viewed as an average strength.
by AllTideUp on Sep 19, 2011 12:58 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Everything you say is true
and I don’t believe B1G membership is in Missouri’s future. I was simply stating that Missouri would be better off on the academic side of the ledger by being in the B1G.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 19, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
And to head off any potential comments on the subject
there aren’t any bad schools in the BCS conferences. Seriously, what is a “bad” school? Do you come out dumber than you went in? Do you stand up at the side of your desk when answering in class? Is their a dunce cap involved? Sure, Duke is a better school than Kansas State in most senses of the word, but their missions are entirely different.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
Well, except for Kansas
I think we all can agree that Kansas Sucks.
Rational Mizzou Talk, whether you like us or not.
by Andy--01 on Sep 19, 2011 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
As an athletic department?
Yes, fuck them a thousand times. However (and I know it was in jest), KU is a fine institution. In fact, it was a flippant remark by yours truly on Burnt Orange Nation last year that led to a swift and eloquent rebuke from a writer at Bring on the Cats. It was roundly praised at my expense and, when distancing myself from the original comment, I whole-heartedly agreed.
What is more accurate in all of this is that certain institutions do not fit the model of what certain conferences are looking for in the membership process. This does not make any of them inherently better or worse than one another, just different in their objectives.
Less memorable than Sam Okey's Hawkeye career.
by Kyle McCann't on Sep 20, 2011 1:42 AM CDT up reply actions
if you badmouth ku on this fine website,
there will be no rebuke, let alone any of the swift variety. please refrain from praising them on here in the future.
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by threadkiller on Sep 20, 2011 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Eh, praise them all you want.
Just be positive about everything, that’s the Turner Gill way.
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well, there run defense does for sure atm--unreal, giving up 604 yards on the ground to an option team
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