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Rock M Roundtable!

Alright, I'm including one more person on the list this week...everybody say hi to mizzourobot!  I figured the more the merrier on this just ends up being more copy-pasting for me, lol...


1 - We'll start with the old standby.  What did you learn about your team this past weekend that you didn't know already?

2 - Give me a Heisman Top 5.

3 - Rank these conferences (in football): ACC, Big East, Big Ten, Big 12, Pac-10, SEC.  (Subquestion: which conference will be better at basketball this year--the Big Ten or the Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference?  Kidding.  Though I do think Grand Valley State has made a decent case to be the 12th Big Ten school...)

4 -  Thoughts?

5 - Pick 'em!  MU @ KSU, ISU @ KU, OU @ Tech, OSU @ BU.

Click 'Full Story' for answers...and feel free to leave your own in the Comments...

ZouDave: Out of Office AutoReply: I will be out of the office until Wednesday, November 14, 2007.  I will be checking my email while I am away, but I may be unable to respond in a timely manner.

The Beef: Welcome MizzouRobot!!

1 - I learned that people have short memories....everyone kept talking about this team not being tested, but I was at the first two games of the season, and they were most certainly tested in the 4th in both of those.  That is all I learned really...everything else I knew (that we were good) or figured (Tony Temple would turn it on like he does every November).

2 - I don’t get the deal with Dixon running away with it right now (per ESPN’s straw polls), so I would say Tebow, Daniel, Dixon, White and McFadden.....

3 - SEC, Big XII, Big 10, Pac 10, ACC, Big East

In, Pac 10, Big East, SEC, Big XII, Big 10....I guess?

4 - Played a nice half against Fordham....will need to play better though against CBE people.  1-1 out of KC would really be awesome for this team, I just don’t see us beating UCLA there though if we meet.

5 - MU 38 kSU 21, kU 49 ISU 17, OU 48 TTech 31, OSU 42 BU 21

Doug: Hi-oh!

1 - Well, I think KU finally proved that winning three previous times on the road in the Big 12 was no fluke, and this time, the knock out for the game came from the offense starting at it's own 11 to score a touchdown when OSU got to only a five point defecit.  The defense did some good things, except in the run game, where they finally allowed a hundred yard rusher for the first time since Toledo.

2 - In no paticular order... Dixon, Tebow, McFadden, Daniel... and a player-to-be-named later.

3 - SEC, Big XII, Pac 10, Big Ten + 1, ACC, Conference USA, Big East

4 - Basket... ball?  I really have no strong opinions at the moment, and won't until I start paying a little more attention.  I didn't watch any of KU's season opener, and only the first half of the game against UMKC on Sunday night.  I will say, hopefully Rush returns soon, because now the backcourt depth that was so good has taken a hit without Collins in the line-up.

5 - MU 42  KSU 14 , KU 42  ISU 10 , OU 35  TT 24 (Mike Leech $15k in fines) , OSU 35 BU 7

The Boy: 1 - While Mizzou did prove something Q4-wise early in the season, it had been a while, so it was definitely encouraging to not only see them score when they needed to late against ATM...and it was very encouraging to see how easily they did it.  In two 80-yard fourth-quarter drives, Mizzou faced ONE third down and had only two plays that went for less than 5 yards.  Chase Daniel was 5-for-5.  Temple and Jimmy Jackson had 11 carries for 78 yards.  I realize ATM's defense isn't exactly the Steel Curtain, but it's pretty easy to get tight in those situations, and Mizzou seemed to relax instead.  That bodes well.

2 - Honestly, Dixon's stats are better than I thought they were.  When you watch Oregon play, however, you come away more impressed with the play-calling than with Dixon himself, and you certainly don't get the "I'm putting you on my shoulders and winning this damn game" vibe from DD, but I still think he's a viable candidate.  My Top 5 right now, in alphabetical order, would be Daniel, Dixon, McFadden, Reesing, and Tebow.  However, I'm finding it pretty damn hard to rank them at the moment.  They're all far from perfect, and none of them have had a true "Heisman moment" yet...though Reesing scrambling for 30 seconds and firing a TD pass the other night was close.  I guess I'll go Tebow -> Daniel -> Dixon -> Reesing -> McFadden.

3 - I realize the SEC probably is #1 here (simply because of their depth from about #5 to about #10), but I get tired of it being a no-brainer debate...especially when the Big 12 has 60% of the BCS Top 5.  I'll go SEC -> Big 12 -> Pac 10 -> ACC -> Big Ten -> Big East.

4 - I'm not sure how a team with 5 seniors can be this young, but Mizzou looks like a very young, energetic team this year.  Four of the five seniors (Brown, Butterfield, Volkus, Horton) will likely see their playing time diminish as the season progresses--they just don't seem to have as much to offer as their younger counterparts--and that bodes well for 2008-09.  DeMarre Carroll has a MUCH better shot than I was led to believe.  He's got a nice set of post-moves and mid-range jumpers, and I'm very encouraged by that.  I'm also encouraged by the way Stefhon Hannah has stepped back and allowed the offensive spotlight to go to Carroll and (when he's rolling) Leo Lyons.  I figure Hannah will be the go-to guy in the clutch, but for now he doesn't seem to have any problem setting others up.

I honestly can't even picture Missouri and Michigan State on the same court together.  Their styles are so unbelievably different.  It will be a good test for Mizzou, playing against such a physical team.  If they're able to get some transition baskets and establish the press, they could be in really good shape.  However, they're not going to score much in half-court sets.  The faster the tempo, the better Mizzou's chances are.  It's going to be an interesting matchup, that's for sure.  I was going to say "fun matchup", but I'm not sure the last time I actually had fun watching a Michigan State basketball game.  No offense to my State buddy Joey V,'s not pleasant.

And I agree—1-1 would be fantastic.

5 - Here's what my numbers say this week: MU 34, KSU 23.  Tech 30, OU 28.  KU 34, ISU 14.  OSU 40, BU 20.  I'd personally change OU-Tech to about 34-20 OU and maybe subtract a bit from OSU's total (sans Bowman), but the others look about right.

ZouDave: Welcome, mizzourobot!

1 - I guess I learned that we can face adversity at home and be ok, or more accurately that our offense can answer the bell when it has to as well as when it wants to.  We already knew that we could play a B game and win, and I definitely don't think we played an A game and we still got a 2-score victory.  Mizzou is a very, very good team.  Ever week we just reaffirm that.  Still, I'd much prefer outcomes like the Colorado game but if we keep winning I will not complain.  Oh...and just in case anyone still hadn't learned it, Jeremy Maclin is amazing and may be the reason Chase Daniel wins the Heisman (either this year or next).

2 - In order?  You didn't say in order, so I'll just name them however I think of and that way I don't look biased:

Chase Daniel
Tim Tebow
Darren McFadden
Dennis Dixon
Jamaal Charles

3 - Big XII - hey, at this point we're the best.  3 of the top 5?  I don't even care what the rest of the teams are like.  1/4 of our conference is in the top 5 in the BCS, end of story.  Big XII, SEC, Pac 10, Big T1e1n, ACC, Big East

4 - Gold pants.

5 -

Mizzou - 34
KSU - 20

Iowa St - 21
kansas - 41

Oklahoma - 62
Texas Tech - 30

Oklahoma State - 44
Baylor - 6

The Boy: (Yes, I meant Top 5 Heisman candidates in order.  But that's okay.)

The Beef: Cleary I am smarter than Dave (we all knew I was smarter than Doug based on college pedigree alone)

The Boy: Yup...those eight years of undergrad sure paid off.

The Beef: They don’t call me Dr. "The Beef" for noth....well.....they don’t call me Dr. "The Beef" I guess.

ZouDave: Fine, ya wee girls

My Heisman Top 5 (IN ORDER)

1 - Chase Daniel
2 - Dennis Dixon
3 - Tim Tebow
4 - Darren McFadden
5 - Jamaal Charles
And of these 5, here's how the voting will actually go:

1 - Dennis Dixon
2 - Tim Tebow
3 - Darren McFadden
4 - Chase Daniel
5 - Jamall Charles

And I could call you "The Beef Dr." if you want...

The Beef: Not bad...I can dig it....what does the Robot think?

ZouDave: and we're still missing Atchison's attempt to pick a fight....I mean, answers.

The Beef: No no....Atch answers...I pick the fights...for instance...


See how it works?

And for a guy with an out-of-office message today, you sure seem to be close to the computer....

ZouDave: Well, the Out-of-Office expired today, I just hadn't turned it off yet when you guys started emailing.

Had you done this yesterday, I was a good 45 minutes from even waking up at this point.

The Boy: Not bad...only 4 of 7 people have responded, and we're already up to 15 e-mails.

Michael Atchison: First, let me confess that I’m afraid of robots.  I hope he’s friendly.

1 - These Tigers are completely unburdened by Missouri’s history.  You could look around the stands at Faurot in the fourth quarter and see the fans’ airways start to seize up.  But Chase Daniel methodically led them through a game-winning drive, and then he did it again, and then Lo Williams put the big exclamation point on it.  These guys don’t fear what lies before them?

2 - Do I get any points for candor if I say I really don’t know?  When the Tigers play at home, it’s hard for me to see many other games because of the commute, so I’m left to do this off of highlights and the thoughts of media smart people.  I like Daniel, obviously.  I think Pat White probably vaulted back into the discussion with the run that beat Louisville.  Everybody lists Dixon and Tebow.  A fifth, I don’t know, is Whizzer White still playing?

3 - 1.  SEC – Every game is a potential loss.  2.  Big 12 – three teams in the top five, gives it the edge over . . . 3. Pac -10.  4. Big East  5. Big Ten  6.  ACC

4 - Secretly (not so secretly, now, I suppose) I wonder if the team didn’t pick up some addition by subtraction with Grimes’s dismissal.  I think the guy could flourish in a half-court system, but he just wasn’t made for this style, and DeMarre Carroll and Leo Lyons very clearly were.  I said it last week, and I still believe that this team is going to be better than a lot of people think.  The backcourt is talented and deep and the guys up front can really run the floor and finish.

5 - Missouri  41  KSU 27
Kansas 45  ISU 13
Oklahoma  41 Texas Tech 17
OSU 37  Baylor 10

One question for the crowd:

Chase Daniel’s Heisman hype is picking up, and deservedly so.  It’s an award that invariably goes to a quarterback or a running back, and he’s one of the nation’s most productive QBs, playing on one of the nation’s best teams.  But do you think he’s the best player on his own offense?  I know he’s the most important, but is he the best?  What about Rucker?  Coffman?  Maclin?

rptgwb: 1. Little to nothing. We reaffirmed the following: Chase Daniel is effective. Jeremy Maclin is fast. William Moore is all man. I don't want to say it was nice to see Missouri have to gut out a win, but it was reassuring to see the team respond so positively late in the game to put that one away. Special teams continue to scare me though...

2 - Heisman Top 5:

Dennis Dixon - I remember Belotti whining last summer because Dixon was playing baseball instead of summer practice. Seems pretty long ago to me...

Tim Tebow - The numbers are ridiculous, but if the Gators don't make more of a push in the SEC East, I may have some trouble justifying this.

Chase Daniel - Our Fearless Leader can make a major push if the Tigers win out and he protects the football. Wins over Kansas and Oklahoma would launch him into major Heisman spotlight.

Darren McFadden - Hard to put him here because Arkansas is so far off the radar at this point, but where would they be without him?

Todd Reesing - KU really has themselves a keeper. Forget size and arm strength and all the measurables. He's smart, he's accurate, and, damn him, he's a winner.


  1. Conference Power Rankings

SEC - The top teams may not be as elite as once thought, but the depth of the SEC is simply stunning.

Big 12 - Elite teams showing up big, but very mediocre middle pack of teams hurts the conference.

Pac 10 - The self-destruction of Cal didn't help a conference poised for a big year after the successes of Oregon and ASU.

Big 10 - When OSU and Michigan are down, the Big 10 has nothing left.

Big East - I think spots 4 through 6 are a crapshoot, but I like the Big East head to head over the ACC.

ACC - BC was a fraud, I don't buy Virginia, FSU is down, Wake continues to shoot themselves in the foot, Clemson is maddeningly inconsistent.


4 - Basketball? Ask me after football's Big 12 Championship. But, in short, Demarre Carroll is going to be a stud but I'm scared of this team's lack of presence inside for when Big 12 play begins. I love me some of the Lawrences, but this team could be in major trouble if shots don't fall early.

5 - Pick 'em:

MU 38, KSU 27
KU 48, ISU 24
OU 52, TT 41
OSU 35, BU 10

Mizzourobot: 1 - That we've entered a whole new level of confidence. Past Mizzou teams would have felt the pressure coming from a team like A&M and buckled like a sorority girl's knees when Quinn Snyder would walk by.  But this team looked at that pressure, and said, "No, sorry, we're better than you. It's not about momentum, or leadership. We're just better than you. Back off. Silly Aggies, Wins Are For Tigs!"  Also, that Jeremy Maclin is not only a pimp, but a pimp that can break the speed of sound.

2 - I like the "who should win vs. who will win" approach.

Who Should Win:

Chase Daniel: Quality wins, leadership, numbers, Sportcenter ability, not surrounded by Florida talent or Pac-10 conference inferiority.

Darren McFadden: The fact that he's still here with as many losses as they have simultaneously speaks to DMac's ability and Nutt's incompetence.  But the numbers and sheer ability make him a solid play for #2.

Tim Tebow: Yay! 7 Touchdowns! Next game: Boo, 3 interceptions! Next game: Yay! 7 touchdowns! Next game: Boo, game killing INT...

Dixon: That's cute. Your quality wins are over a team that lost to Appalachian State and another that lost to Stanford. You're very talented, kid, but move along.

Glen Dorsey: Seriously. The man could move a mountain by staring at it.  He's terrifying. And he leads the reason LSU is #1 in the country.

3 –  SEC: I want to say the Big 12. I do. But Arkansas, South Carolina, and Kentucky are some of the mediocre teams in that conference. And all of them have been ranked in the top 15 at some point this season.  And aTM, Tech, and OkState would have no chance in hell against them.

Big 12: Top heavy, bottom heavy, nothin' in the middle. But it's going to be showcasing the best game of the year in a week and half, and then will have the National Champion Missouri Tigers, so that should help.

Big East: Well... um... they have a paper leader in West Virginia... and... um...Go Bearcats...!....? They're not as horrible as the rest, how about that.

ACC: Va Tech is pretty good. I think Florida State can sneak up on people. Miami is schizophrenic.  BC is cute. I can see them going .500 or better in bowl play.

Big 10: Thank you, Illinois! Not only did you knock off those impostors at the top, but you helped our SoS. Thanks so much, Zooky! See you next year!  I like Michigan to win the conference... if that tells you anything about how bad they are.

Pac-10: The bane of my existence. Their best team is pretty good, but non-con was less than impressive, and we'll see how they do against the big boys in January.  I like the Ducks a lot, from watching them play, but I have to measure it against the competition they're up against. They're basically Kansas with a bigger engine to me, and about 2.5x the schedule. But the rest? USC? Um. Yeah. Hi. Welcome back to mediocrity. Good news, though, you'll always get the rub from the press so you'll be ranked! Cal? ASU? None of these teams would hang with the Big 12 Big 4, and that Tenn vs. Cal matchup would probably work out differently now.

4 - We have talent. We're going to surprise people. The media loves our coach. We're going to upset either Texas, KState, or Kansas. Probably KState. I want no part of UCLA until the tournament, at which point I want to break their spirit, topple their season, and laugh in their nancy boy faces and ask them "where's your untouched goal-to-goal layup God now?!"

5 –

MU: 41
KState:38 - Almost a letdown game, but just enough to put us in total under the radar mode vs. Kansas before we expose them.

ISU: Not So Much
KU: Cupcakes!

Tech:28- Seriously. Leach is going to have the Pirates ready to rape and pillage. But the Sam Bradford lovefest continues. See you on neutral field in San Antonio, fucksticks.

OSU: 43
BU: 10- Let it out, Gundy. Let it out.

The Beef: To answer Atch’s question, I do believe he is the best player on the offense, just not the best athlete.  To me, player still encompasses the qualities of leadership and making others around you better.  Coffman, Rucker, Maclin would all still be the athletes they are with a different QB, we just might not see it as much.  Daniel is the best player because not only what he can do himself, but for what he causes others to become capable of doing on a regular basis.

That being said, I believe Daniel is making a hell of a run at winning the year.  I don’t believe, no matter what he does (and that would include winning out and throwing for 1000 yards or more yards and say 9 TD’s over his last 3 games...very attainable to say the least) he wont win it next year, but has a GREAT chance of winning it next year.  Heisman is all about pub, and I think ALL the pub will be on him to START the season next year, and not ¾ of the way through the season like it is becoming this year.

Mizzourobot: Whoops, didn't mean to CC ya'll and send it to you. Thanks for the opportunity by the way, I'm really glad to be a part!

And in case I didn't mention it, the biggest reason Chase deserves the Heisman is the Golden Watermelon Balls of Fury.

Here's how they'll actually vote:

  1. DMac
  1. Tebow
  1. Dixon
  1. Daniel
  1. Ryan

The Beef: No are supposed to send to all of us so we can poke holes in it and call you stupid.


Mizzourobot: Wow, so it's just like Christmas at my parents' house. Who's drunk and who's got the 8 ball in the car?

I have to say that I agree that Chase is the best player on the offense, not the best athlete. Rucker's had bad games and we've won.  Maclin could have a bad game and we'd still win. When Chase has a bad day, Oklahoma players starting running the other way with the ball on defense.  

I will say that I think the most valuable weapon for the offense is Coffman. He's the safety valve but instead of the 3 or 4 safe yards, he goes 15 and a touchdown.

The Beef: Dave will definitely be the drunk one...and is that a magic 8-ball 8-ball?

ZouDave: I'm sorry...which one of us can recall even a single moment from the drive home from Shreveport and which one, as far as he knows, teleported back to St. Louis?

You saying I'll be the drunk one is like Paris Hilton calling somebody a slut.

The Boy: Dude's got a point.  I've never lost a whole day of my life to a hangover before...that was awe-inspiring...

The Beef: OOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooohhhhhhhh.....well played sir.....I do have some matter of sick pride in the fact that I lost a day of life and was hungover from the 31st on the 2nd.

Mizzourobot: I went to New Orleans for New Year's last year. We referred to the next day as a Category 5 Hangover. It was like I had sex with a train.  I smelled like a garbage heap in India, and I accidentally punched a volvo.

rptgwb: To be fair, the Volvo was asking for it...

The Beef: I passed out from 1:30am to 2:30am...slept from 3am to 11am...then 11:30 am to about 10pm (give or take being awake about an hour in there) and then 10:30 pm to 11:00am....and THEN was hung over....I did not eat actually until the 3rd...I believe I reached category 5 status.

The Boy: I think we've just welcomed a bull into a china shop, lol.  And yeah...Chase has got more weapons at his disposal than any of the other top Heisman candidates (I can't tell you how great it felt to type that, but seriously...right now Jared Perry is the 10th-best weapon on this team, not including Chase himself, and he was the best freshman WR in the conference last year), but I do think he still drives the car better than any QB on the planet.  Tebow, Dixon, and Reesing could all put up startling numbers with these weapons, but I think the offense is more dynamic with Chase at the helm than any of those guys.  And I think if we beat KU and OU, then it doesn't matter how much hype he didn't get early in the year.  This isn't the normal year, where the winner is ordained in September (cough cough Troy Smith).  The winner still hasn't been ordained, and I think for once whoever plays best down the stretch will win it.

ZouDave: I agree with that.  We've seen nothing all year but top 3 teams lose and their star players going with them.  Before the first week, all we knew was that Michigan was going to have TWO finalists for the Heisman and now they're looking at getting their 4th loss this Saturday.

No, I think this year the Heisman voting will come down to the last 6 weeks of the season as far as hype/press goes.  The players getting the most hype from November 1 until the voting will have their entire season looked at and they'll say "There's your winner."  Honestly, this is probably a blueprint for how it should always be.

Mizzourobot: I would say that except for the fact that for some reason, the mainstream media tends to want one guy to be in the top every single week. If someone doesn't make it look easy, we hear the "there's not a clearcut Heisman this year!" which is ridiculous because there should never be a clearcut Heisman.  But DMac started off at the top, and he's going to finish at the top because he's done nothing to hurt his cause, since all the blame can be attributed to the genius head coach of his.

Doug: Good Lord, go to breakfast for an hour... come back to 26 messages.

I took a look back at my list, and yes... that's the order I would put them in right now.  But, I still don't see a fifth candidate at the moment.

However, I would argue that Todd Reesing has as many weapons to throw to as Chase Daniel does.  Marcus Henry is probably the second best wide receiver in the conference, Dezmon Briscoe is truly gifted, and no other team in the conference has a back-field tandem like KU has with McAnderson and Sharp.  Not to mention, there's no telling who's going to come up big each week.

The Boy: This year has definitely proven the idiocy of year-round Heisman speculation.  I remember a couple months ago, bitching that the words "Andre Woodson" and "Heisman moment" were mentioned in the same sentence about 78 times during the Kentucky-Arkansas game.  How's that Woodson Heisman campaign going now?  Just like we shouldn't have Top 25 polls until the beginning of October, nobody should be allowed to say the word "Heisman" on-air until the beginning of November.

Oh, and hey Skip's that Todd Boeckman for Heisman campaign going?  It's a good thing you have no pride because you'd have quit the sports commentary business years ago.  Instead, ESPN apparently rewards you with a lucrative "dollars per decibels" deal...

Doug: Well, they don't let Bayless do the "written word" any longer.

Yes, I think pre-November Hesiman hype is beyond stupid.  We have this in college basketball, seemingly every year (last year being the anamoly), with the winner being decided before the season starts.

This year with the Heisman, you've had a couple of deserving guys really play at a high level throughout the entire season, but since they weren't in the national spotlight to begin with, it'll be harder for Chase Daniel or Todd Reesing to win... both might get invited to New York, but I would think a first place finish would take a few world-beating performances to close out the year.