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Rock M Roundtable!

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1 - At what point were you just certain Mizzou was going to win?  And how many times did that certainty totally disappear after that?

2 - For Doug: if Mizzou beats OU, KU's virtually guaranteed a spot in the Fiesta Bowl.  If OU wins, KU is at best 50/50.  Are you rooting for Mizzou this weekend?  For the others: let's pretend the shoe is on the other foot.  Kansas is one game away from the national title game (which makes you want to puke), but if they make it there, your chances at a big-time bowl increase dramatically.  Are you capable of rooting for KU in that scenario?

3 - To say the Big 12 is in flux is a massive understatement.  MU and KU have surged.  NU has dropped off the face of the planet.  CU and ISU are improving incrementally (you can maybe add Tech and OU to this list).  UT, ATM, KSU, and OSU are stagnant at best.  What's going to happen over the next few years?  Of the improved/improving teams, who do you see staying near the top, and who do you see faltering?  Of the disappointments/stagnant programs, who's screwed, and who will likely bounce back quickly?

4 - Predictions?  We'll go national this time.  Central Florida vs Tulsa, Miami-OH vs Central Michigan, LSU vs Tennessee, Virginia Tech vs BC...and MU vs OU.

Click 'Full Story' for answers, and post your own in comments...we're going to show up on all the wrong google searches after this one...

Doug: 1 - I was pretty certain after the first quarter when I saw that KU's run game was not working and they were having Todd Reesing make the kind of throws that are not to his strengths.  Granted the middle-of-the-field strike to Meier worked, but then to go back to the well on the next play was playing with fire... and it got them burned.  You have to get Reesing out of the pocket, make people chase him and give him a better view down the field.  And, when he takes every snap in the shotgun, that should be fairly easy.

2 - Sorry guys, but you could hold a loaded gun to my head and I would not cheer for Missouri.  But, I don't think that's a major shock.  Right now Oklahoma is 9th in the BCS standings, if the Sooners win, that knocks MU off of number one, and depending on how the rest of the weekend shakes out, could move KU back into the top 4 of the BCS, meaning, hellooooo!, automatic BCS bid!  So, I think that throws the 50/50 scenario out the window.  Hell, people are even thinking that KU and OU could meet up in the Fiesta Bowl if OU wins.  Granted, it would be a big F-U to the Big 12 on the part of the BCS, but I don't think KU would care quite so much.

3 - Okay, here's my prediction for the next three to four seasons... Ron Prince gone at KSU after next season, he's on a short leash now, and I don't see them winning a lot in conference next year, especially against KU and MU, who, I believe, he is now 0 and 4 against.  Mike Sherman... disaster of a hire for aTm, like Bill Callahan disaster proportion, rule of thumb... don't hire a former pro coach that's been caught on tape sleeping at the NFL Combine.  Nebraska will hire someone, but it will turn out to have iffy-results, creating another major coaching search at NU in the next 4 to 5 years.  Also in the next 4 to 5 years, I can very easily see Mark Mangino taking another step up the coaching ladder, and while I certainly hope that's not the case, even if he leaves, I can see KU becoming a more favorable destination for an up-and-coming young coach than it was before he arrived.  I think CU finally turns the corner next season, and ISU takes another two years, but both should be back to being perennial pre-New Year's Day bowl teams.  I'll also go out on a major limb and say the coaching search at Baylor goes all to hell, and they leave the Big 12 in the next three years.

4 - Tulsa 14  CFU 21 ,  Miami OH 17 , The Pansy Ass Chippewas 28 (weren't they suppose to suck this year?  that's what I heard about everybody on KU's non-con schedule) , LSU 42  Tennessee 43... in quadruple overtime , VaTech 38  BC 28  ,  MU 24  OU 35, sorry guys, OU is back on track, they've got guys healthy and OSU was a perfectly timed tune-up for them.

Michael Atchison: 1 - 21-0.  It was over then.  And then my faith faltered a little when Kansas lined up for the onside kick, but Tommy Saunders soothed me.  And then I felt fear when Mizzou lineup up to punt, but Adam Crossett calmed me.  And then I felt a twinge of trepidation when Kansas got the ball back with 17 seconds to play, but Stryker Sulak and Lorenzo Williams rocked my entire world.

2 - Hypotheticals are hard, but let me say up front:  No matter how hard I root, it doesn’t affect the outcome.  Bottom line is that I want what’s good for my guys more than I want what’s bad for Kansas.  And so I’m pretty sure I’d want them to win so we got a better opportunity.

3 - Of the improving/surging teams, Mizzou (I think) has the best chance to stay on top because (1) they’ve already risen above the rest; and (2) the Tigers have natural recruiting advantages over the others.  I don’t see any reason why Kansas can’t be an upper echelon team as long as Mangino’s staff is there; they clearly know how to get the best out of their talent.  And I suspect that Hawkins & company in Colorado have something brewing.  Gene Chizik seems to be a pretty savvy football guy, but I think ISU is going to bump into a ceiling; they’ll just have a hard time passing the teams ahead of them.  And Nebraska needs to make a home run hire or risk falling into a generation of mediocrity.

Texas is stagnant in a way that most programs wish they could be.  Sure, they’re not the national championship caliber team they were a couple of years back, but they’re still pretty good.  They’ll always have the necessary depth of talent in the program.  What they need now is to recruit just a handful of offensive difference-makers, and I have little doubt that they will.  A&M, likewise, has so many natural advantages that it’s hard to believe they won’t rise up.  On the other hand, Oklahoma State has T. Boone Pickens’s money, but I’m not sure that money and Mike Gundy will get it done.  And the clear loser last weekend in Kansas City was K-State.  Mizzou and Kansas completely took over the region that has been KSU’s most fertile ground for recruits and support.  If this game continues to be at Arrowhead, and if K-State doesn’t get really relevant, really fast, the Cats run the risk of being marginalized at home.

4 - I won’t even pretend that I have a clue about the first two games.

LSU  34
Tennessee  31

Va Tech  24
BC  13

And we’ll have to look at the tape, but I don’t know that I’ve been wrong on a Mizzou game all year.  On the off-chance that I’m actually affecting the outcomes, I’ll go:

Missouri  35
Oklahoma 27

The Boy: 1 - I was confident after Q1 and cautiously optimistic after Q2.  I knew at that point that Mizzou had better speed and strength, but to only be up 14-0 was cause for a bit of concern.  When they went up 28-7, I was about 85% sure it was over, and when Wolfert hit the first FG to go back up three possessions (31-14) in Q4, I was about 98% confident.  But when we had to punt with :30 left, that went down to about 55%.  I'd just seen too many disasters.  But it's a no-brainer to say that the DL's team picture that left Reesing with half the endzone stuck in his helmet was one of the most cathartic moments of my sports life.

2 - I just don't think I'd be able to root for KU if the shoe were on the other foot.  Even if it meant Mizzou falling to, like, the Holiday or Alamo Bowl, my urge to see KU get whomped by OU would be too strong.

3 - Honestly, MU and KU have a chance to be the class of the North for quite a while.  I give MU the advantage simply because a) I'm a homer, and b) the caliber of athlete Mizzou has been recruiting lately (and is still recruiting) is a step above what KU has attained.  The key for MU to long-term dominance of the North will be the 2009 season, when they have to replace about 15-17 starters.  They will obviously take a step backward that year, but if it's only a small step, they'll be back to the top by 2010 or 2011.  If it's a larger step, and certain media types start to dissent against Pinkel and Staff again, our grip could be loosened for quite a while.

I really do think MU and KU have an opportunity, though, for long-term North dominance.  CU should continue to improve, but I only think they'll get so far.  Cody Hawkins is solid, but they got to 7 wins due to guys like Jordan Dizon (senior), Terrance Wheatley (senior), and Hugh Charles (senior).  Without those guys in '08, I think improvement will be minimal.

KSU?  I think "Scary Smart" will be in trouble...if not after '08, soon.  They just don't have the talent they think they do, they're getting outrecruited by half the North, and their best two offensive weapons (James Johnson and Jordy Nelson) are seniors.  It doesn't matter how good you think Josh Freeman is (and I personally don't think he's very good)--if he doesn't have any dangerous weapons to hand/throw to, he's going to struggle.

NU?  I think Bo Pelini would be a disaster, and Turner Gill only a slight improvement.  They can get back to being above-average, but nobody they're considering hiring will take them back to the promised land.  What's fun is, no matter who Tom Osborne hires, the base will be completely and utterly convinced that The Order Will Soon Be Restored.

ISU?  They showed a lot of fight late this season, and I think their current regime can take them to bowl games, but I still think they'll max out at 7-8 wins.  They're just not going to be able to recruit the caliber of player they need to make serious noise in the conference.

As for the South...OU should dominate for a while.  They have by far the best overall young talent, and now that Vince Young's gone, everybody's remembering that Mack Brown is a decent-at-best coach.  I think if Mike Leach hasn't peaked yet, it will be in 2009, the last year he has both Harrell and Crabtree.  And besides that, Leach will continue to flirt with bigger jobs (last year, Miami; this year, Arkansas) until he finally nabs one.  I agree that Sherman was a disastrous hire.  Keep it in the family all you want, ATM...this hire does not even remotely scare me.  OSU has potential, but they're losing Savage and Bowman after this season, and their defense still stinks.  Worse yet, it seems to have stunk with seniors this year.  Next year they'll be inexperienced yet again.  And yes...Baylor really doesn't deserve mentioning, especially since they were spurned by Mike Singletary.

4 - Congrats, Doug.  Your team whooped a MAC division champ.  Scoreboard.  :-)  I say Tulsa > UCF (CFU...whichever)...we'll say 38-24.  CMU > Miami...uhh, 27-13?  LSU 24, Tennessee 20.  BC 20, VT 17.  And I very much disagree that OU's "got guys healthy".  Without a healthy Auston English last time around, Mizzou would have scored 40.  At best, it sounds like English will be about 75%...if he plays at all.  Mizzou 31, OU 24.  OU can obviously win this game, but they'll have to play very well to do so...and they've done that only sparingly in the last month.

ZouDave: 1 - Well, honestly I was certain we were going to win all week.  I knew Mizzou was the better team and I knew we weren't going to let this one get away.  This team has made me believe more than I really ever thought I could.  But, to put a precise moment on it where I actually said "We got this." it was after our 98-yard TD drive to go up 14-0.  At that point in the 2nd quarter, I think it was obvious to everyone watching the game that Missouri was not only the better team but was playing a better game.  Was I worried when it was 34-28?  A little.  But we got the ball back with that lead and I knew what was coming (well, I didn't know that a sack for a safety was coming, but I knew we'd take the clock down to about 20 seconds and give ku the full field to go with no timeouts).  But honestly, never once while I was in Arrowhead did I ever feel anything other than "Missouri is going to win this game."

2 - In all honesty, I'm not capable of rooting for kansas.  If we'd lost on Saturday and were sitting at 10-2 with OU also 10-2 and ku 12-0, I don't think kansas winning would have given Mizzou a BCS game.  kansas winning would have put them in the National Title game and I think a 10-3 OU team would get the Cotton Bowl's attention (there wouldn't be another BCS team from the Big XII in this scenario) so we'd be looking at the Holiday Bowl.  So, we wouldn't have wanted ku to win anyway.  We'd have been rooting for OU so that they'd get the automatic, kansas would get an At Large, and it would be between 10-2 Missouri and 9-3 Texas for the Cotton Bowl.

3 - (uh oh, long answer coming)

I have to think Missouri is arriving where we'd hoped they would be back in 2005.  I think this is the beginning of a stretch where anything less than 9 wins will be considered a disappointment and the general expectation will probably be 10 to 11 wins depending on the schedule.  I truly believe that over the next 5 years, Missouri will not drop out of the Top 25 more than once.  I don't necessarily think we're going to be in the Top 5 at all times, not at all.  But I just firmly believe the program is established now to the point where Coach Pinkel is going to be able to sustain success and really start to create a new era of Missouri football.  I can see us being very similar to Virginia Tech's run over the past 5 or 6 years, where there's an appearance in a National Title game (this year?) surrounded by some 10 and 11 win seasons with some steps back to 8 or 9 wins every few years depending on graduating a major player (like a Chase Daniel or Michael Vick).  That may sound arrogant, but I also think it's true.  We've possibly hit this now at a perfect time, because obviously NU is down and KSU is struggling and CU is still finding a new identity so it truly is Missouri's time to be the flagship team in the North.  And with the way Gary Pinkel has built the program, I think we can and will stay here for awhile.

I also believe Nebraska is screwed, at least for the near future.  Their program has been wrecked, and they're going to have a really hard time fixing it.  I think the fan support will be there for quite a few years because it's just a family tradition up there for you to be a Husker fan but we've already seen how quickly their fans turn on players and coaches.  They're going to have to learn patience, because their program has to be rebuilt and it will take a few years.  They have the resources to do it, the question will be do they have the patience to let it happen before scrapping it and attempting to make another immediate turnaround.

I think Colorado will be relevant against as early as next year.  I don't think they're necessarily going to be 10-win good in the next couple of years, but they'll be a bowl team as long as Cody Hawkins is their QB.  I'm not sure Iowa State will really ever do much aside from occasionally ride a wave of luck into a 7 or 8 win season.

The teams I can't peg are the kansas teams.  ku is obviously in a pretty good situation because they're clearly a good team (you don't get to 11-1, even with an easy schedule, without being good.  And they played hard against Missouri, they just weren't as prepared.)  KSU is in a world of hurt, because their 3 biggest rivals absolutely own their new coach and the only team their new coach owns isn't on their schedule for the next 2 years.  If Ron Prince doesn't find a way to beat either ku or Mizzou next year, he better have 8 other wins or I'm not sure he survives.  And since the games against ku and Mizzou are both on the road for KSU next year...he's in a heap of trouble.  With kansas, I certainly don't expect them to repeat this season but I also don't expect them to disappear.  Their schedule gets significantly harder over the next two seasons, but they have Reesing and a lot of other talent over the next 2 seasons as well.  What we don't know is if they're for sure going to have Mangino over the next 2 seasons, and that's really the kicker.  If he's still there for Reesing's SR season, I don't see any reason why ku fans couldn't set an expectation of 8 wins in each of the next 2 years and get it.  And if they have a run of 3 years where they're 11-1, 8-4 and 8-4, that's pretty freaking good for a "basketball school".

As for the South, OU and Texas are always going to be 9+ win good because that's where they are now and that's what they are.  I think Tech is always going to be between 7-5 and 9-3 but will NEVER win the South.  Baylor should drop the sport.  Okie State is a lot like Tech, and I just don't really ever expect them to realistically compete for the South title.  A&M is the wildcard here.  I fully expected them to be 4 wins better than they were this year.  Their lack of success is almost shocking to me.  Sherman had great success at A&M as an O-Line coach 15+ years ago, so we at least know he gets the fans and all of that.  But what kind of offense is he going to bring?  If it's Pro-style offense, it will be tragically hilarious.

4 -
UCF - 48
Tulsa - 42

Central Mich - 38
Miami (OH) - 30

LSU - 34
Tennessee - 17

VA Tech - 24
BC - 10

Mizzou - 41
Oklahoma - 36

The Boy: Tragically hilarious.  I like that.

Oh, and bonus question: who introduces the Mizzou starting lineup Saturday night?  I say the odds are in favor of either John Anderson (would he be allowed?) or maybe a Sheryl Crow vs Toby Keith showdown, but I'm rooting for Robert Loggia, baby.

The Beef: #1 – I think at 28-7....I believe we answered their first score of the game and I started to finally feel better.  I was a little nervous for each FG (not sure why since the dude never misses in Big XII play) and the onside kick had me a little bit (though what a terrible effort...no high bounce).  I was not nervous when kU got the ball back since there was SO little time and SO much field to traverse.

#2 – You know, I just started to type out the answer that would have said that yes, I could "root" for kU in that scenario...but I really don’t think I could.  In the end, I think we would be high enough to get a solid bowl anyway, so screw ‘em.  And I realize that goes against much of what I talked about last week in threads on here, but in that EXACT scenario, I don’t think I could do it, since we as Mizzou fans would never hear the end of it and I just would grow very tired of that constant smack.  Though of course, most Mizzou fans would constantly smack kU for losing in a similar fashion....stupid 2-lane roads. (Bonus: Doug’s comments of kU perhaps making top 4 has a LITTLE bit of validity, but there is a LOT that would need to happen.  Obviously at least us or WVU would need to lose, and then you would really need for USC, LSU and Va Tech to all lose their games so that they don’t hop kU in the process.  Which is funny, since MU is rooting for all those teams this weekend (and Washington) to safe guard against Illinois hopping up into the BCS and potentially stealing a spot from us if we are to lose)

#3 – I have already gone on record in saying I believe Gundy will be gone from OSU after next year.  I agree with Doug that I think Prince could be VERY quickly headed down a similar path, much for the reasons that Dave also just laid out (you see...I am usually first in responding...when you are close to the end, you can just say you agree with people).  Baylor is bad and while they might get lucky to hire some no-name small coach or assistant, but even if they do, whoever that is would be gone from there soon after that anyway.  OU and UT are there, but I agree with The Boy, I think OU is there longer and better than UT is at this point without some big offensive (and defensive honestly) players.  I think kU is solid, and I am not so sure Mangino does not stay for awhile since I believe kU has some big facility improvements coming on board soon.  CU is decent and can be decent, but I think they will need to upgrade over what they have very soon, and I am curious to see what sort of recruiting class Hawkins can put together out there.  I am not sold on ISU and their program, but if there is ever a time for them to come up, it would be now considering the sad state Iowa is in.  NU would be better to hire Pelinni AND Gill, that would at least give them a shot....but hiring one or the other I believe dooms them still.  I hated the aTm hiring for aTm...they needed young and fiery down there to revitalize things and they did NOT come close with Sherman.  And I like us....I am now scared about 2009 since I don’t have a depth chart with years in front of me...but I think we have arrived and can be around for awhile.

#4 – I am going to go with Atch on this and straight pass on the first two since I don’t know records or anything.  I will pull for Tennessee, BC and us...but will predict LSU 27 UT 21, Va Tech to avenge their collapse 24 BC 14 and us to win....oy vey....MU 34 OU 30

#5 – Bonus question.  No one introduces us.  No one did for the NU game....no one did for the kU game...I say no one does for this game.

ZouDave: I heard a rumor that Sheryl Crow was singing the National Anthem at the game, but it was probably just somebody wishing out loud.  If she is, though, then that's probably the most logical answer.

Otherwise, I'll go with Brad Smith as far as who I want to do it, and Pig Brown for who I think will actually do it.

And hey Doug, small point of order on your answer in #2.  ku at #4 wouldn't be an automatic.  The rule applies to #4 only if it doesn't apply to #3.  In this case, it would apply to #3 because #3 would be Georgia.  That means #4 can get ignored.  Not that they would, but it would be an option.

Mizzourobot: 1 - When we stepped off the bus, back from Colorado. I'm not kidding. I'm having a hard time adjusting to this new "We're going to win this thing" attitude, but it's definitely there. I knew that even after the shaky defense against KState, this team was focused, and ready. This team plays with a singular focus of mind that just defies expectation. And this was the game I knew Chase wanted badly. If you want a point in the game where I felt like we'd actually accomplished it? The 98 yard drive. kU was all excited that they'd "pinned" us on the interception, the referees blew the call by saying it was on the 2, this was the perfect situation for a critical mistake.

And instead Chase and Tony drove it down their throats. Ballgame.

2 - I'm rooting for non-serious injury, ending in a tie. I guess I would probably pull for kU, since if they beat us, I would want to lose to the national champions, and I definitely want the BCS bowl berth. I'm livid that we beat kU, have a more solid schedule than OSU and USC, yet if we lose this weekend we're out and Kansas is in.

Of course, we would never lose to kU in a situation like last weekend, so it's like saying I'd root for unicorns over minotaurs.

3 - I've been saying this all season, and I will continue saying it as it happens. Change happens. That's a fact. Nothing stays the way it is forever. I honestly believe we're entering a new era in the Big 12. Nebraska's recruiting ability has been devastated by the Callahan regime. I don't think Chizik will be able to lead ISU to catch up as quickly as it needs to. They're in for a few more years of ups and downs. They'll get some signature wins, miss a bowl a few years, and generally be unstable. I see Colorado settling in where Mizzou used to be. Near the top, but never on it. I think they have too much to recover from. kU and MU are going to be the new Texas and Oklahoma, but I think with MU's newfound ability to recruit in Texas, they have the advantage. Throw in the fact that this was as special a year for kU as it could have been, and I really think MU is going to be at the top of the Big 12 in whole for a while.

In the South, OU will be good, because they still have the focus, the recruiting, and the coaching. They have the national exposure and the media support. Texas, I can tell you, is in for a rocky time. Living in Austin, I've been absolutely marveling over the last two seasons. Mack Brown is constantly under fire. The man won a championship two years ago (Vince Young or not), and now his job's in danger. The expectations are ridiculous here. I don't think anyone can succeed under it. That said, between his mismanagement of coordinators and how Texas has become open territory for the country for recruiting, they're vulnerable right now. Texas Tech hasn't made significant improvements. They get better, they get worse. They're so inconsistent it must be maddening for that program (wait, I know exactly how that feels). OKState will have the odd Kansas-type year, but will never really establish itself next to big brother.

aTm is where I differ from the pack. Sherman was a hell of a coach in Green Bay, and I honestly think his main problem was he is MORE suited for college personnel solutions than Pro. He knows how to motivate a team, knows how to gameplan. Throw in the fact that instead of bringing in a coach with tons of media attention, they know have a darkhorse that can go in and just recruit talented guys that are under the radar, I really think they could be in for a surge.

4 -
Tulsa 41
CF: 28

Miami-OH 21
Central Michigan 17

LSU 51 (they're going to be a teensy bit pissed)
Tenn 20

VT 21
BC 14

MU 38
OU 30

OU is not at a 100%, they're still trying to figure out how they lost to Tech, they're not playing at Norman, which means they're about 75% of their home team, we've gotten better, they've gotten worse, we're hungrier, they're not expecting a North team to have a shot, and Chase Daniel will want to regain the Golden Watermelon Ball of Fury they stole from him last time. Throw in the fact that we won't be running any trick plays but will be running T-Squared, and this is a good combination of events. I started off the week thinking it wasn't going to happen. But after re-evaluating who they've lost and who we've gotten back, and all the circumstances, I feel it. We're going to win this game. Just like everyone's thought we were going to lose all the other games.  It's our time.

BONUS: I think John Anderson would be perfect. It would be entertaining, the brand synergy they love, and a nice hat tip. Sheryl would be good, too. If I see Toby Keith on air I will throw things.

Doug: Well, even if #4 isn't an automatic, I don't see how they could ignore the number 4 ranked team however the BCS standings wound up.  So let's say for sake of argument that, MU does lose, so that puts WVU and OSU in the championship games  Then you take the other 3 major conference winners, Hawaii as the small-conference qualifier, that leaves 4 at-large bids, if my math is correct, since the Rose Bowl no longer has Ohio State.  Even if at that point #4 is not an automatic bid, it's still would not be a bad place for KU to be.

rptgwb: 1 - When Mizzou went up 21-0, I thought it was completely over. I still felt good until the touchdown to Marcus Henry, at which point my joyous shouting at the television began to die down a little and nerves began to kick in. By my how sweet "The Sack" was...

2 - No. Never. Not happening. I'll take a Cotton Bowl berth and a crushing defeat for a rival over a BCS berth and a rival having a shot at a national title.

3 - MU and KU are here to stay for the next few years, especially as recruits take notice of the two schools. Mizzou is stockpiling athletes, and Mangino is one HELL of a coach. Nebraska will come back in some form (obviously not their 1990s form) eventually, this we know. Tech will continue to be Tech. OSU will continue to be OSU. CU will be solid once they can find consistency, and ISU could be a force once Chizik gets "his guys" in the program and can find an offense. UT will continue to recruit well but Mack Brown will cost his team two games a year. OU will continue to be the South power, and Texas A&M will be playing the wait and see game with the Sherman hire. K-State will continue to be an enigma, and Baylor will improve drastically - to 1-7 in Big 12 play.

4 - Predictions

Tulsa 27, Central Florida 17
Central Michigan 24, Miami 21
LSU 38, Tennessee 31
Virginia Tech 20, BC 13
MU 38, OU 34

Michael Atchison: I don’t know who makes the intro.  I think they have to make a call to Brad Pitt’s people (though I doubt he answers).  If it were up to me, it would be one of our two 2007 Hall of Fame inductees:  Norm Stewart and Roger Wehrli.

ZouDave: I totally agree, but there's other factors.  There's no guarantee at all that ku just moves up considering how many teams below them have an opportunity to win.  LSU, VA Tech, USC and OU are all immediately behind ku in the BCS and all 4 of them are favored to win.  It's naive to think that at least 2 of them won't hop over kansas with those wins.  Also worth noting is that ku only dropped from 2 to 5 with their loss.  There's no guarantee that Missouri would drop from 1 to below 4.  It's completely conceivable that a Missouri loss puts Missouri at 4 and the other 3 teams move up.  I mean, anything could happen (other than Ohio State and Georgia moving down while idle, because unlike kansas (or Mizzou if we were idle this week) they get the benefit of the doubt since they've been good for so long).

#4 in the BCS is never a bad place to be.  But I don't see kansas remaining there.  I think both VA Tech and LSU are going to jump them after their wins, and USC might if they are really impressive.  It's not that any teams in those positions would do that, it's that it's VA Tech, LSU and USC which are cream of the crop teams.  if Hawaii was #7 right now, they would not hop idle kansas.  Missouri is seeing similar "respect" shown to them right now, being the #1 team in the nation and yet an underdog for our next game.

And then on a different note, you can't sit there and tell me you think kansas is more deserving of a BCS Bowl if Missouri loses.  While kansas wouldn't be at all required to turn down the invite, there's just no justification AT ALL for kansas to go to a BCS Bowl if Missouri doesn't also.  We'd both have the same number of wins, and we beat you head-to-head for the division.  We'd be punished because we earned the right to play another game.  That would just be a complete sham.

Doug: Unfortunately, history does not go along with you.

Yes, Missouri making it to the Big 12 Championship game means they should be considered for a BCS bowl regardless of the out come.  However, here's some history:

2006, NU loses to OU in the Big 12 Championship, NU goes to the Cotton Bowl.
2005, CU gets bombed by UT, ends up in the Champs Sports Bowl.

  1. CU bombed by OU, ends up in the Houston Bowl.

2003, OU loses to KSU, still plays for the National Championship against LSU in the Sugar Bowl.
2002, CU loses to OU, plays in the Fiesta Bowl, because the BCS was really screwed up that year.
2001, UT loses to CU, plays in Holiday Bowl.
2000, KSU loses to OU, plays in the Cotton Bowl.

Of course, I can't leave out the 1998 when K-State was looking the National Championship game in the face when it lost to aTm in the Big 12 Championship, and wound up in the Alamo Bowl.

Now, I obviously did not go back and look at the individual BCS rankings of the Big 12 Championship teams going into the game, however, you cannot deny that if you are the losing team, history has proven you are far less likely to receive a BCS-bid.  Additionally, the teams lower in the rankings benefit from the loss far more.  Is it fair?  No.  But that's the landscape we find ourselves in when not every major conference has a championship game, when the Big 10 finishes it's schedule the week before Thanksgiving, and when the grip on the tradition of the Rose Bowl out-weighs the reality that a play-off is required to have a "true" national champion.

Congrats to MU for making it this far, but they have to seal the deal now.  You're right, it would be a complete sham, but no more of one that has been perpetrated several times over the course of the BCS' history, especially when the Big 12 Championship is involved.

On a personal note, as far as KU goes, I only really want to see the Jayhawks go to at least a New Year's Day Bowl.  I'd be more than happy with the Gator Bowl or the Cotton Bowl, especially since I would have a realistic opportunity of attending that one.  But, no I don't think KU is more deserving than MU to go to a BCS bowl... but what I think matters for jack-crap in this case.  If Missouri loses to OU, I have a strong feeling OU and KU will go to BCS bowls and MU will go to the Gator or the Cotton.  In the end, that's just guessing on my part.

The Boy: I do enjoy reflecting on the fact that, in the last three months, "Oh man, how awesome would it be to make the Cotton Bowl?" has turned into "Oh hell no...I will be PISSED OFF if we end up in the Cotton Bowl."  Sign of a good season.

Mizzourobot: I also think it's fascinating to be on this side of it. Before the season started, I would have said "A BCS playoff is the only fair way to go about it. There's no other way. At LEAST a Plus-One." Now, and especially if we win on Saturday?

"The BCS is perfect! No need to change anything! We have got it RIGHT! I love me some BCS! Viva La BCS! Just call me a BCSexual!"

Michael Atchison: There’s a little apples-to-oranges going on with Doug’s point.  Of all the championship game losers who didn’t end up in a BCS game, Texas (in 2001; they came out of the game 10-2) is the only one that had fewer than three losses.  Most of those teams had absolutely no shot of making it into a BCS game without winning the conference title game.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/...

I don’t know if we make it to a BCS game if we lose (and I hope not to have to find out), but I’m not sure if there’s any real precedent for this situation, where a BCS number one team might lose in its conference championship game and then get passed over for an at-large berth in favor of a divisional opponent it beat during the year.

The Boy: The closest examples have to be 1998, when undefeated KSU tumbled all the way to the Alamo Bowl (satisfying me greatly), and 2003, when seemingly invincible OU got pummeled by KSU.  Between KU's sitting at #5 with 1 loss and the Rose Bowl's ignorant insistence on wasting a spot on 3-loss Illinois, Mizzou could end up getting doubly screwed, and by two teams they beat, no less.

Not that this matters, since Mizzou is beating OU 31-24...

ZouDave: See, I won't be pissed just if we go to the Cotton Bowl.  It will be stupid, but it's still a great 1/1 Bowl and our fans could get there EASILY so it would be fine.

My gripe will be a BCS Bowl taking kansas over Mizzou should Mizzou lose.  At that point, it's just absolute rubbish.  If Missouri is to lose and ends up in the Cotton Bowl, as long as kansas isn't in a better bowl then at least it won't feel completely broken.

Illinois the Rose Bowl is another distinct problem.  9-3 team over a (potentially) 11-2 team and the 11-2 team also has head-to-head victory.  Rubbish.

The Boy: Right, and that's why I'd be pissed.  Dallas would be a fantastic trip, but at this point, we'd end up in Dallas because we got screwed.

Michael Atchison: I get confused by all the permutations of the formula (or perhaps I can’t be bothered to try to figure them out), but as it currently stands, Illinois is ineligible, correct?  Don’t they have to be in the top 14 to merit a bid?

The Beef: Yes...they are #15...and would need to be top 14 to merit consideration.  BC, Tenn, AZ St and Hawaii are all very close to them in the standings and playing this weekend, so enough losses out of this group will cause these teams to fall out and Illinois to rise by not playing, since no one from behind (I don’t believe) is in any position to jump them.

Doug: I think the precedent was set in 1998, when K-State slipped from what could have been a national championship berth to the Cotton bowl, with only one loss... and that coming in the Big 12 Championship.

Of course, the comparison is a whole lot of apples to oranges, but there's still a downside to having to play a conference championship game while the vast majority of teams are idle, and need only have you slip up to receive a better bowl game.

Like I said about Dave's note... no, I don't think KU is more deserving of a BCS bowl bid than Missouri.  But, if/when MU loses to OU, I think that knocks them out of the BCS picture, since they will have two losses, one coming on the last day of the season, when it will be freshest in voters' minds.  That's the biggest downside to the conference championship game when not every conference plays one.  You win it's great, you lose it sucks, and a team like Ohio State can sneak into the National Championship game.

Michael Atchison: This doesn’t have anything to do with anything we’ve talked about, but have you fellas seen this?

http://deadspin.com/sports/yahhhhhhh/canadian-psas-are-clearly-not-messing-around-327432.php

Holy mother of all that is good and holy!

Accept my apologies in advance for the disturbing imagery.

Mizzourobot: Thanks. I was worried about Allen Patrick haunting my dreams. Now I have that chick.

Jesus.

The Boy: Something tells me I should be glad deadspin is blocked on my work computer.

ZouDave: Oh for crying out loud...why do I insist on watching things even when I know they're going to be horrible?  I won't sleep tonight.

rptgwb: I have it on good authority that Bob Stoops actually left the grease.

Win it for AO. Win it for Pig. Win it for the Canadian chef.

Doug: Doesn't that kind of sum up Canada's place in international politics for like the last century?

The Beef: Longest roundtable EVER!!

ZouDave: That's what she said!

Doug: Careful... we're moving dangerously close to this whole conversation not making it through the junk e-mail filters.

The Beef: And filling up rptgwb’s email account....The Boy and I call this an email jihad (NOW it will get caught by the filters).

Michael Atchison: The best part about the Deadspin link is the comments.  The readers are on fire.

Doug: And possibly by Homeland Security.

That's Seth... Rosner... St. Charles, Missouri.  Or, as he's now to his friends, Abdullah.

The Boy: Hey...YOU're the fan of the team with corners named Talib and Muhammed.

Mizzourobot: Talib: "Hey, what are you doing? Get your hands off me, man! I'm on TV! I play corner for the Jayhawks!"
Northeastern Homeland Security Officer: "Yeah, right. Like Kansas has a football team. Let's go, Talib. If that is your real name. Hey, why are you carrying all these cupcakes?"

Doug: So?  Last I checked neither was planning on committing e-mail Jihad.  Or, were they?

That's Seth... J.... Rosner.........