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Rock M Roundtable!

1 - Mizzou was favored to beat Colorado by 11, and they won by 26.  Despite things that went wrong, clearly quite a few things went right.  So why is everybody so glum?  Actually, a better question: why is everybody simultaneously glum and assuming a victory over Texas A&M while debating about Gameday coming to Columbia in two weeks?  (Ed Note: if the following roundtable is any indication, Mizzou is lighting Texas A&M up like a Christmas tree on Saturday.)

2 - Does Texas have any chance in Lincoln this weekend?

3 - Mizzou Basketball is poking its way into the headlines again.  So ... someone offers you 26 wins and a Sweet Sixteen appearance for Mizzou in 2010-11 right now.  Deal ... or no deal?  Does that sound pretty good, or are you holding out for maybe something better?  (Doug, obviously you'll answer the question in terms of what Mizzou fans should do...not what you would do as a Kansas fan.)

4 - Eric Stoltz as Marty McFly?  What's the best "What if..." casting job you've ever heard about?  If you haven't ever heard one, make one up.  Here's one I made up: John Wayne was supposed to play Daphne in Some Like It Hot instead of Jack Lemmon.  That would have been awesome.

The Beef: Uh oh…someone left the door unlocked….

#1 – I’ve been around the Mizzou Intrawebs since early 1997 now, and the decline of the online fan is in full force.  It is literally to the point where I don’t want to read many of the online sites AFTER A WIN.  Again, and I often run into this, it is not my desire to somehow attempt to control HOW people cheer for "their" team, but our fanbase just has to be miserable to be happy.  In line with that, the expectations for this team are getting to be somewhat ludicrous.  Not in that I don’t think they can be achieved, but see if you can follow me on this.

Many people though 9-3 would likely be our final record, and I think most people would have taken that to start the season.  Since the season has started, and according to most, we struggled with Illinois, beat up a D1AA, struggled with San Diego State, beat up on Miami(OH) and then struggled with CU.  So while we landed at 5-0 as most thought we would, it was a much bumpier ride than anyone likely anticipated.  And yet, this week I read where the same person who predicted us to be 9-3 now says 9-3 will be a disappointment.  And yet, with the possible exceptions of the Texas schools (who we do still play on the road), everyone else is just about where we thought they would be (with the exception perhaps for kU). Is the line so fine that we HAVE to go 10-2 now for this season to be considered a success?  Has it really come to pass that Mizzou fans can honestly look at a nine-win regular season as nothing but a good thing?  I only ask because we really have not had too many 9-win seasons in my lifetime…which is twice.   And I believe the total number is four (though I could be wrong, but I thought it was 60, 69, 07, 08).

And I get it...if you don’t think big, you’ll never get there.  But I just think an unfortunate amount of our fan base is getting more and more off-kilter in what could be considered truly reasonable expectations.  And that worries me, because as that portion of people gain more and more voice (as is far more possible today than it was 20 years ago, or 10 years ago, or FIVE years ago even), I grow concerned that a move could be made which may only serve to set us back.  The future here is so bright, but I cringe every time I now see some of our fans absolutely fly off the handle when a 6’3, 310lb O-lineman recruit from one of the most storied programs in TX, and it seems to happen more and more.

#2 – They have a chance, but I don’t think it is a great one.  I think they can do some things on defense to stop NU more than some/most have just on sheer size and athleticism, but if you are giving up those sorts of points to UCLA, then I don’t think you have enough discipline to REALLY stop NU, nevermind their own inability to consistently score.  And with the game in Lincoln…I just don’t see it happening.

#3 – Wow…26 wins and a sweet 16 for a team with one senior.  I’d probably take it as this team gets ready for what likely is their big push in 2011/2012 (similar to what football could be looking at if we return our draft-eligible juniors)

#4 – Johnny Depp as some sort of new Batman villain…..I suppose it still could happen, but I say make him the Riddler or something.

ZouDave: And 3.5 hours later, someone will answer.

1 - Because you're not talking about "people", you're talking about Mizzou fans.  The truth is you're never as bad as you think and never as good as you think.  To a Mizzou fan, we're worse than we think and way better than we think.  You're supposed to hope for the best and prepare for the worst.  Missouri fans demand the best and expect the worst.  We're just a very specific kind of self-immolating fan.

2 - Sure, Texas has a chance in Lincoln.  Texas isn't as bad as they've looked, and Nebraska isn't as good as they've looked.  Up until about a week ago there was an immense amount of love for KSU football and I still have no idea where it was coming from.  Then Nebraska stomped a mudhole in them, and people act like Nebraska just beat Oregon or something.  KSU was always a 7-5 to 8-4 type of team, but everyone was just dying to make them contenders.  They weren't, and aren't.  Nebraska's win was impressive, and they looked very good doing it, but they didn't beat a contender.  They've had the Texas gamed scheduled since last December, and they're going to give Texas everything they've got.  Texas has the athletes to stand up to Nebraska, so it comes down to coaching.  If they coaches have the right plan, and have their players' attention, they can win this game.  But it won't be easy.

3 - I think I'd take that this year but not next.  When these guys are all seniors we have to make a huge splash.  But I think I'd take that this year.

4 - I read an article in Playboy a few years ago (yes, I did read an article in Playboy, shut up) about the last days of Chris Farley.  Incredible story, the guy was just a wind-up monkey toy.  Anyway, Shrek was originally a Chris Farley project and the storyline was completely different.  The Shrek we got was an ogre who didn't want to be anything besides an ogre, just wanted to be left alone.  The Chris Farley Shrek was damn near a biopic and it was about an ogre who didn't want to be seen as just an ogre, wanted to prove he could do so much more, but nobody ever gave him a chance and couldn't see past the exterior of him...just expected him to always do ogre things.  One of the scenes they'd already done the voiceover for had Chris Farley singing "Feelin' Groovy" by Simon and Garfunkel and they described it as one of the most simultaneously hilarious and sad moments they'd ever captured.  He recorded at least half of the dialogue before he died.

What a different experience that franchise would be, given the if.

Michael Atchison: 1. Some people are bummed (and let’s stipulate that folks complaining on message boards are just some people) because they grew accustomed to seeing an offense that moved like a hot knife through butter.  Daniel, Maclin, Coffman et al. made it look easy.  And it’s not easy.  It’s really, really hard to move the ball down the field consistently against a D-1 defense, especially now that coordinators have had years to consider how to attack the spread.  I don’t spend as much time reading the boards as some of you, but all the Gabbert kvetching seems short-sighted.  Chase Daniel was the perfect engine to drive this offense.  Blaine isn’t Chase; as far as I can tell, hardly anyone is.  But Chase also had playmakers all around him, and Gabbert doesn’t have any.  He has two guys who are really reliable ball-catchers within 12 yards (Moe and Egnew) and then he has a bunch of guys who simply aren’t as talented as the guys who preceded them.  This team misses Alexander and Perry and (yes) Washington.  Derrick would have made a difference against Colorado (and it seems absurd that I’m talking about guys who were missed in a 26-point win).

And the Gameday obsession baffles me a little (I’m sure it’s a generational thing).  Sure it would be fun, but I imagine if/when it happens, there will be grown men weeping.  OhMyGodOhMyGodOhMyGodOhMyGod Gameday is coming!!!!

2.  Does Texas have a chance?  Sure.  They have the kind of athletes who have a chance to contain Martinez in the running game.  If he struggles to run, can he throw?

3.  If at the end of the season, the team has won 26 games and made the Sweet 16, I’d absolutely call it a success.  But I don’t want to take that deal now.  Let’s roll the dice.  I’ve seen that result before.  I want to see if they can do more.  More thoughts on the subject in the forthcoming Rock M Nation hoops preview.

4.  Apparently, Alec Baldwin turned down the lead role in The Fugitive.  I would have loved to see him play Richard Kimball as Jack Donaghy.

The Beef: To me, all Gameday is about exposure for the University…especially if it is on Homecoming.  But beyond that, it would be fun for the kids, and Corso will pick OU to win

Michael Atchison: And in news sure not to shock the world, the NCAA is poking around Baylor basketball.

We haven’t gotten to the free-for-all section yet, but as long as we’re talking NCAA infractions, George Dohrmann is single-handedly shaking up the world.  If you haven’t already read it, check out his story in this week’s Sports Illustrated where ex-agent Josh Luchs names names of players he paid and agents who cheated: .  That story will have ramifications for years.  Also, Dohrmann’s new book about youth basketball, Play Their Hearts Out, just came out and was excerpted in the magazine a couple of weeks ago.  Can’t wait to read it.  Clark Francis couldn’t be painted in a less flattering light.

ZouDave: Alec Baldwin in The Fugitive...hmm, I think I'd rather see him play Marshall Samuel Gerard the way he played Capt. Ellerby in The Departed.

"You have an immaculate record.  Some guys don't trust an immaculate record.  I do.  I have an immaculate record."

"Patriot Act, Patriot Act!  I love it, I love it, I love it!"

"I'm gonna go have a smoke right now.  You want a smoke?  You don't smoke, do ya, right?  What are ya, one of those fitness freaks, huh?  Go fuck yourself."

Just imagine that guy in charge of lines like "So he showed up not dead yet.  Let that be a lesson to you, boys and girls.  Don't ever argue with the big dog, because the big dog is always right."

or of course:

"I didn't kill my wife!"
"I don't care!"

Throw in a little Blake from Glengarry Glen Ross and you've got yourself a character!

The Beef: Heard Luchs on the radio yesterday here locally in STL (and then turned it off before he was on with Mike n Mike this morning), and I guess I am not so sure about the shaking up the world, only because he has been out of the game for a few years now.  That, and you cannot help but just not like him when you listen to him because he is just bitter (and will tell you that himself) and is out to somehow try to clear his name in some respects for his kids.  The ramifications from Luchs is if there is truth to the notion that agents are in bed with Mel on draft status stuff…since that is at least recent and would bring down a significant portion of what the NFL and the world-wide leader does.

Michael Atchison: Here’s the thing.  It doesn’t matter if Luchs is a likeable guy.  The magazine got several of those players to confirm the stories.  It laid the process bare unlike anything I’ve seen.  And it’s making such a big splash that there’s sure to be a big regulatory reaction.  The problem the NCAA has with enforcement in football is that it’s too big a job.  You take 100+ Division One schools with 85 scholarship players and spread them all across the country, and the NCAA can’t do anything but be reactionary.  There will be more demand for action now, more legislators and prosecutors poking around, more journalists probing, and if the NFLPA and agents have any sense, stricter regulation and harsher punishments for guys who cross the line.  It’s also going to put pressure on coaches and staffs to be more vigilant and more aggressive in internal policing.  With what has happened at USC and North Carolina, I imagine that there are a lot of players, coaches and agents who have reason to be afraid, and this story pours gasoline on their fears.

The Beef: I guess I don’t see this doing as much damage as the UNC and USC stuff has done because it is all the more recent.  And if people are somehow surprised by this, well then I don’t know what to tell them.  But telling me that Ryan Leaf took money and these other guys took money is a big ol’ "meh"….and I don’t think it is going to provoke the NCAA into doing anything they were not already planning on trying to do in the wake of the UNC thing and Saban being high and mighty about agents.  To me, this is like pushing something that was already going downhill at a good speed…it does not do much towards helping the object reach the max velocity it was already about to hit.

ZouDave: compare it to Jose Canseco's book a few years ago.  It put everything out there in a very unflattering light.  Jose Canseco was far from likeable.  Turns out he was also far from wrong.  And now you basically can't talk about baseball without talking about steroids.

Doug: 1 - Because we're talking about Missouri fans.  Missouri fans are only happy when they're miserable.  It's a fact.

2 - They have a hell of a better chance than K-State did.  Martinez is a very fast runner, but I think the Longhorns have the team speed on defense to keep him in the pocket better than the Wildcats.  And, if he does get a couple yards of seperation I don't expect it to turn into an 80 yard run for a touchdown.

3 - I would think any Missouri fan would take that deal right now.  And then spend the majority of the summer bitching about how they should have had 28 wins and made the Elite Eight.

4 - Richard Pryor as Bart in Blazing Saddles.  I think it would have been a very different take on Bart as a character, probably a darker read on the part and, if possible, more profane.

Michael Atchison: Should we assume that our resident Texas Rangers fans are way too hung over to participate today?

(Ed. Note: And here's where things go awry.  Ghtd36 responds to the initial e-mail, which didn't include The Beef ... meaning Beefy wasn't getting some e-mails and was getting others.  Just know that it was no less confusing to those experiencing it over e-mail.)

ghtd36: Morning.

1 - Missouri is very, very capable of losing to Texas A&M, and nobody's talking about it. In fact, Mizzou is a three-point underdog. Is nobody worried about this? Missouri is traveling outside the state for the first time. I am absolutely amazed at the fan base's inability to recognize TAMU as a threat. Are they as good as we thought at the beginning of the season? Likely not. But are they still a team that could very feasibly beat Mizzou by two touchdowns? Without a doubt. Missouri fans are weird.

2 - No. I've finally -- finally -- come around on Nebraska. After last week's game, which Admiral Ackbar would have been proud of if you know what I mean, I'm a convert. They're the best team in the Big XII, and the best team in the Big XII doesn't lose at home.

3 - I take the deal. So many crazy things happen during the course of a season that nothing is guaranteed. Look at Texas last year: big recruiting class, a few nice returning pieces, Big XII also-ran. I take 26 wins and a Sweet 16 in a heartbeat.

4 - Know what would be weird? If Nathan Lane played Marsellus Wallace instead of Ving Rhames.

Michael Atchison: I agree about A&M.  Game is a toss-up at best.

Love the Nathan Lane as Marcellus Wallace idea.  I think we should recast the whole film.  I’ll suggest Wallace Shawn in place of Samuel L. Jackson as Jules Winnfield.

ZouDave: Here are clips from posts I've made on this week, that seem to go towards your answer to #1:

When asked if I was concerned at all about how Mizzou has not played anyone of note this season, and shown that aTm can say YES when asked if they've been tested, I said:

"Honestly, I think this gets a bit blown out of proportion. Have we played a murderer's row? God, no. But it's not like we haven't been in tough situations so far this season and have played a bunch of complete suckholes. Illinois is 3-2 and just beat Penn State. Miami (OH) is 3-3. San Diego State is 3-2. Colorado is 3-2. So their records 12-5 outside of the games against Mizzou.

And it's not like we don't have players accustomed to big matchups. Our QB started 13 games last year, all of our receivers started/played in all 13 of our games last year aside from Moe, our offensive line has 4 starters from a year ago, and our defense (who just pitched a shutout against a Big 12 team) has 7 returning starters on it as well. We may not have had a major test yet this year, but this team has seen good teams before. And this year they've had to come back from 13-3 at the half against Illinois and also scored a game winning TD with under 1 minute to play against San Diego State so they've faced their own share of adversity.

Is there any doubt that A&M is the best team we'll have played so far this year? Absolutely not. But I don't think our team is somehow not prepared because we haven't lost to a good team yet.

JMHO, of course."

In another post titled "Missouri is scared" I said:

"No. No we're not. But we're also not coming in assuming anything or taking anything for granted.

You're Texas A&M. You're never going to sneak up on anyone. If you don't get a team's BEST effort, especially in College Station, then that team's coach deserves to be fired.

Scared? No. Anxious? HELL YES."

Clearly my point is here is that I am a model fan and everyone should be like me.

Michael Atchison: Dave, you’re not a model fan.  You’re a model man.

ZouDave: but I'm not a man model.  Important distinction.

Michael Atchison: Musical references:  "Model Man," King Crimson; "Male Model," The Undertones

ghtd36: The chick who played Punky Brewster as Mrs. Wallace.

ZouDave: Soleil Moon Frye?

Yes, please.

ghtd36: Wait, her name is Soleil Moon Frye?

So, it's Sun Moon Frye?

What if she marries a guy named Peter Earth?

ZouDave: She should marry Bart Starr's son...

The Beef: Are we to assume ghtd and rpt are in some sort of post-Cliff Lee induced bliss?

ghtd36: Whatever do you mean, Beef?

ZouDave: No, because Greg has been responding to our messages for about 30 minutes.  You probably weren't on the list, though.  I think that's because ght thinks you're a douchebag.

I'm not trying to start anything.  Just trying to help.

The Beef: Just saying that I had to utter his name to draw at your presence this morning :-)

The Beef: mmmm….fail abounds

Bill C.: Yeah, this is going to be confusing as hell to paste together now.

The Beef: Clearly, which is why I am now going to pile on what one of at least two different conversation threads

ghtd36: Oh yeah, I've been responding. I guess Beef's not on those first few emails. Not sure why. Probably the work of the Libertarians.

You guys hear about the super-exciting news from last night down south?

The Chilean miners are being rescued!

Michael Atchison: Since every casting decision so far has included either a character or an actor named Wallace, I’ll nominated Rasheed Wallace as Vincent Vega and late Alabama governor George Wallace as Winston Wolf.

ghtd36: Al Pacino replaced Steve Buschemi.

The Beef: Actually…I believe I have only missed yours…Bill was nice enough to include me on the rest.  Maybe he WANTS me to hate you

ghtd36: It all makes sense now: Bill's afraid that if you and I become superbestfriends, he'll be left out in the cold.

And you know...he's probably right.

The Beef: And for Bill’s sake I do this…

Mike Alden….

See…it was never meant to be between us


ghtd36: Good discussion point, ZouDave's Sister's Brother:

Kelly Clarkson: yes?

ZouDave: Oh I would, but I wouldn't consider it a crowning achievement.  She's good enough looking (sometimes), she's a great singer (which I have a soft spot for), she's famous and rich (which I also have a soft spot for) and I figure she probably has a lot of good food to eat in her fridge for afterwards.

ghtd36: I imagine she wrote "Already Gone" explaining the status of the leftover pizza from last night to her roommate.


ZouDave: "Kelly, where's the double-fudge ripple?"
"Already gone."
"And the thin mints?"
"Already gone."
"Did you eat them?"

The Beef: Wow…swore that said double-fudge nipple

ghtd36: Only if the mood strikes ZouDave's sister.


ZouDave: I'm sure you did.

The Beef: Oh so you guys have a dress down week for the United Way this week too?

ghtd36: Why is Brett Favre wearing a mask?

ZouDave: geez, did you just "I know you are but what am I?" me?

The Beef: Wouldn’t it be more of a facepad with this one?  I’m just sayin’….

RPT: Fun fact from the road. Reed Arena has a new floor that is 2000 percent less terrible than the old one.

The Beef: So you are saying that El Paso no longer appears at the free throw line?

Bill C.: And it's not brown on brown on brown on brown on brown?

That's quite the home court advantage, really...they'd be dumb to change.

ghtd36: Kim English, pulls up and fires from Odessa...

Michael Atchison: While you guys were talking Kelly Clarkson and posting bondage cartoons, I was out playing kickball with six-year-olds.  I dominated.

The earth just gave birth to another Chilean miner.  It’s like watching the Duggers’ reality show.

The Beef: I watched #14 emerge…pretty amazing stuff.

Also heard a rumor some of them were fighting about who got to come up last, since that person would hold the record for longest time underground or some such record.

ghtd36: If you're fighting over who gets to come up last, is it really that big of a crisis?

(Two hours later...)

ZouDave: Uh oh...prayers to Jenna Haze?

The Beef: Yikes…guess this will put a stop to the seasonal hit "Christmas Cums Early 2010" that we all know Atch was so looking forward to.

ghtd36: Rock M Nation: a family site!


ghtd36: And, considering basically all I see Atch Tweet about is his kids...well...I don't know. That just rubs me the wrong way. THERE ARE CHILDREN PRESENT! MY FREAKIN' EARS!


Coincidence that Rod and Todd, standing together, make 66 6? I think not.

Michael Atchison: Come on, be fair.  I also tweet about my prostate.

Doug: Well, this Round Table can't go any lower.

Bill C.: Oh please don't challenge these can ALWAYS go lower

ZouDave: Yeah, he could be tweeting about Beef's prostate.

Doug: What? So, I guess poking the bear is frowned upon in this establishment?

ZouDave: especially now, after 9/11 when everyone got so sensitive.

Thanks a lot, bin laden.

Doug: @BeefsProstate is one of the most followed Twitter handles on the web.

The Beef:


ghtd36: You know what's weird? I woke up this morning and said, "Well, today's going to be awesome. It's sunny, the Rangers just won their first playoff series in franchise history, and I'm definitely not going to hear about Beef's prostate."

Boy, was I wrong.

Doug: Beef's prostate is a lot like the Spanish Inquisition in that regard.

Bill C.: FYI: I'm going to start pasting this together in the next 15 minutes, so...grand finale!

The Beef: If my prostate is involved, you know the finale is always grand