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Rock M Roundtable!

1 - With the Washington news (and yet another DWI this weekend), has your outlook on the 2010 Missouri football season changed at all since the last roundtable?

2 - Is a good disciplinarian somebody who comes down hard on rule-breakers, or somebody whose players don't break rules?

3 - What food and/or beverages will you be partaking in this Saturday?

4 - One of the most difficult showbiz transitions is from stand-up comedy to television.
Who’s done it the best, and who’s done it the worst?


RPT: 1. I think this Washington situation has been a litmus test for the fan base about A) How much importance fans think Mizzou will place on the running game and B) How fans feel about the depth at the position. My biggest concerns are in the redzone, where Washington's ability to fall forward was a tremendous asset. Lawrence and Moore both strike me as all or nothing type of backs. As far as style is concerned, it's as if Lawrence and Moore are the Barry Sanders to Washington's Terrell Davis. Will Mizzou have to put up with more negative yardage on plays for greater payoff on bigger runs? I don't know. Can Mizzou afford to do that? Minimal yardage on first down was a killer last season. I'm really not sure how it will play out, but I'm excited to see how it goes.

2. Somewhere in between? It's a copout answer. My hope is that a good disciplinarian is also someone who brings the right people into the program so as to avoid many of the problems in the first place. All in all, outside of a seemingly increasing amount of stupidity from players, it seems to be a reasonably good group of guys, but what the hell do I know?

3. Whatever they put in the press box, so probably stale popcorn and free waters?

4. Dave Chappelle has to be high on that list, no?

Michael Atchison: 1 - Of course my outlook has changed.  Take Washington out of the offense and it’s not the same team.  I don’t doubt that they can still be good, but he was one of the very few known playmaking quantities, and by all accounts, he was having a monster camp.  Take at least one win off the board somewhere.

2 - The goal is to have discipline, not to have a disciplinarian, so I’ll go with the latter.  If you’re in a position where you have to come down hard on lots of players, that’s a problem.  That said, Gary Pinkel has a long and good enough history that I’m willing to consider this summer an outlier.

3 - I don’t know.  I’ll run in the morning, so maybe a protein shake, some toast, yogurt.

4 - Is it too obvious to note that Jerry Seinfeld did well?  And is the transition really that difficult?  There’s Roseanne, Ellen, Denis Leary, Drew Carey, Rosie O’Donnell, Louis CK, Bill Cosby, Glenn Beck.

ZouDave: 1 - Not really, I mean we've definitely lost a potentially big playmaker and leader from our offense but we're still a passing team.  In 2008 we started a true sophomore at running back and did just fine, so it's not like this is brand new territory.  The biggest difference I guess would be that in 2008 camp DWash got all the 1st team reps whereas this year Lawrence was working primarily with 2nd team.  But we're going to run the same plays and have the same philosophy as we always did.  I don't know that this changes our win total at all, but it might make specific games harder to win just because we lose depth, experience and ability at running back.  It could, however, be a good thing for the future if Kendial Lawrence ends up being our guy.

2 - Comes down hard on rule-breakers.  I don't think you're going to find much success having kids not break rules; it's what kids do.  Someone can certainly put some good practices in place to help keep kids more out of trouble than others, but the end result is you have to deal with rule-breakers appropriately to be known as a disciplinarian.  If your team is full of players that don't break the rules, you're probably going to be known as lucky more than anything.

3 - Bob's 47 will be my drink of choice until it disappears from stores in November.  I was SO pumped to see it already in stores a couple of weeks ago and have already gone through a case of it.  As for food, we'll be doing the pretty standard fare of burgers, brats, beans, etc.  I'll plan on preparing most of that food at halftime.

4 - The best has to be Jerry Seinfeld, doesn't it?  His stand-up career was pretty sub-par if I remember right, but obviously his TV show was not.  Worst?  Yikes, that's going to be a long list.  Chris Rock didn't do to well.  Christopher Titus has had MULTIPLE failed tv shows.  I was going to say Brett Butler (remember shim?) but apparently Grace Under Fire ran for 5 seasons.  Who knew?

ZouDave: re:  Dave Chappelle - Not sure you can say he's done it the worst unless you're talking specifically about his failed show Buddies.  He had a mountain of success with Chappelle's Show but it was prematurely cancelled because of conflicts with the network.  That was the perfect medium for him to showcase his comedy, and it didn't fail because he wasn't doing it well.

RPT: Oh, I was definitely putting him in the "did it best" category.

Michael Atchison: Jerry Seinfeld’s stand up career was far from subpar.  Back when most of you were embryos, I was in college, and I remember Seinfeld selling out Jesse Auditorium in the blink of an eye.

ZouDave: Ah, gotcha.  Not sure why i assumed the other way, perhaps because i had just spent time thinking of the failures before reading your answer.

Do you think atch was expecting a better response so far on his glenn beck joke?

RPT: Just got around to reading the FO piece Bill linked this morning. I've got to wonder if it just perfectly described the point I was trying to make regarding Washington v. Lawrence:

"If their overall yards per carry are equal, a running back who consistently gains yardage on every play is more valuable than a boom-and-bust running back who is frequently stuffed at the line but occasionally breaks a long highlight-worthy run."

ZouDave: Yes, I think that is well-put.

Volatility is an important concept in any kind of numbers game.  I think a lot of ill-informed or idiot fans would rather think they want a highlight reel back because it sounds more exciting.  Obviously you'd much rather have a guy that will get you 4-6 yards on every single carry, and will maybe bust a 20-yard run every once in awhile.  But that's not exciting.  Chicks dig the longball, etc.

And hey, speaking as a highlight video maker, it's hard for me to include a lot of 5-yard runs in a video.

Bill C.: FO's logic has become part of you.  Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood.

ZouDave: something-something-something- DARK SIDE

Bill C.: Okay, fine, I'll answer my own questions...

1. Dave's right.  Mizzou is a passing team.  Considering the way Mizzou tries to use the horizontal and short passes to "establish" the short game the way a lot of teams use the run, losing their starting RB might not hurt them as much as it would other teams.  (In some ways, TJ Moe is as important to the short game as any RB.)  That said...seemingly every practice report Gabe or Matter wrote over the last month included a gushing account of Washington's play.  To me, the ceiling for this team rose in the last month because of how Washington seemed to be playing, and now it's back to where it was a few months ago.

2. My idea of a good disciplinarian is somebody who comes down hard on rule-breakers ... which leads to fewer rule-breakers.  Chicken v. egg, etc.  Pinkel really does have a good track record in this regard, so like Atch, I will view this as an outlier.  But the peer leadership -- Gabbert, the captains, everybody else -- needs to step up and nip this in the bud immediately.

3. I'll have to ask The Beef.  My guess is that, since we'll be tailgating by 8:30 or so, some variation of breakfast burritos will be involved.  And Newcastle.  Pretty sure I start every season with Newcastle.  Burritos + Newcastle = breakfast of champions.

4. Gotta be The Cos.  Or is it The Coz?  (unintelligible something something) JELLO PUDDINGPOPSSSSSSSSSSTH.

ZouDave: There is nothing at all wrong with Newcastle.  Literally nothing.  It's my go-to beer every other time of year.  But if you like Newcastle, I can guarantee you'll like Bob's 47 from Boulevard.  Find a way to get some if you can.  If you can't find any, I may have to bring some to Columbia for you when we play McNeese State.

RPT: "Considering the way Mizzou tries to use the horizontal and short passes to "establish" the short game the way a lot of teams use the run, losing their starting RB might not hurt them as much as it would other teams."



Bill C.: Nine months later, a good portion of Mizzou fans still think a) Mizzou lost that game because they refused to run the ball (not, you know, because they couldn't stop Navy to save their lives), and b) Illinois is absolutely going to completely overhaul their base defense to a 3-4 or 2-5 just because Navy proved that Mizzou will always lose when facing less than a 4-man line ... because ... yep ... THEYREFUSEDTORUNTHEBALL!!!!1!!!!  And because teams overhaul their defenses in the offseason just to stop the first team on the schedule.

Doug: 1 - It certainly makes you wonder about complacency.  Missouri has been very good for several seasons now, and I think there is a danger about the "hunger level" for the team.  These guys know success and if they aren't continually working to maintain that level on and off the field, there could be problems.  Washington was supposed to be a big part of Missouri's offense this year.  Is his loss debilitating?  No, but there may come a time where the Tigers need three yards on a big third down and only come up with two on the carry.

2 - Yes.  I think Jimmy Johnson put it best: "I won't treat you all the same, but I'll treat you all fairly."  You can come down hard on some rule breakers, but if you handle it properly, you don't have to destroy people to get them to follow the rules.

3 - I've got some Boulevard Wheat in the fridge, and that will be out-of-region for me soon, so I better enjoy it now.

4 - Steve Martin went from stand-up to TV to film... and now he's so far beyond film he has a traveling, minstrel banjo show.  As far a worst was?  If you had seen Richard Pryor on stage, wouldn't you have expected him to have an amazing film career?  But, you look at his IMDb filmography and realize... damn, he never had a starring role in a TV comedy or drama, his own, self-titled show lasted all of 4 episodes, and his last role on TV was a guest spot on "Norm".

Oh, and big news here... very soon football will be starting even earlier in the day for me!  I'm headed to Albuquerque, so in October the Rock M Round Table will extend into New Mexico.

ZouDave: Albuquerque is one of my favorite cities on earth!  Freaking beautiful part of the country, EXCELLENT food, just a great place to be.  I've got some really good friends down there if you are ever in a bind and need anything from a local.  What's taking you down there?  (hoping for a better answer than:  work)

ZouDave: And yes people seem to forget that our Cotton Bowl game we faced a team that was content to put 8+ in coverage on every play.  How'd our running back to that day?  I can't quite recall.


Doug: Well, actually, yes.  Work.  I'll be working at a TV station down there

Thanks for the offer.  I head down there on the 23rd, and start at the station on the 27th, so the next few weeks are going to be crazy.

ghtd36: I'm back from the coma that writing the Sooner Disrespect Chronicles pushes me into. YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE, EVERYTHING I DO, I DO IT FOR YOU.

1 - My outlook has changed, but not to the point of Atch's theory that Mizzou can now count on an extra loss because of it. Here comes a shocking revelation: I think Kendial Lawrence is good. As such, I think that the system is going to bear the brunt of the blow, where we simply find out that yes, the scheme is a winner regardless of who is running the ball. That's not to say that Washington's presence won't be missed; that goes without saying. But I think that to profess doom-and-gloom because of Washington's absence is short-sighted. Remember: there was a time when Missouri was worried about replacing Tony Temple and Zack Abron and Marcus Woods. To quote a Rangers marketing phrase: It's Time.

2 - Ultimately, I think college athletic discipline is a reactionary game. You can put all of the fear of God into someone that you want, but they ultimately control their own lives. And when you're someone like Gary Pinkel, you're in charge of a bunch of college kids. You can't hold their hand; you can only shove that hand into a meat grinder when they screw up. Pinkel's not the problem here. The problem is that this team is, in fact, constituted of college kids who routinely make stupid decisions.

3 - The girlfriend's dad's company is throwing its usual tailgate, and they usually offer a wide array of liver-blackening goodness. Also, whatever I swipe from the Rock M Nation tailgate, which may or may not actually exist. The RMN tailgate is like a the Loch Ness Monster.

4 - I proposed this question immediately after watching "Louie" on FX. Louis C.K., if you haven't seen the show, is in process of making the transition, and doing it well. But the winner has to be Jerry Seinfeld, Ray Romano or Bill Cosby, doesn't it? As for flops, Norm MacDonald (a personal favorite of mine) has flopped spectacularly in a number of shows. Christopher Titus can't buy one. Chris Rock's struggled. It's an interesting topic proposed by a devastatingly handsome Roundtable member.

ghtd36: Check out Doug, scoreboarding everyone on moving to New Mexico.

RPT: To be fair, it sounds like a tremendous step up from Kansas.

Doug: Only from the stand-point of not being next door to Missouri.


RPT: You're right. You're now next door to Texas. Congrats.

ghtd36: By the way, bonus Roundtable question: yesterday was the 13th anniversary of Princess Diana shaking hands with a wall a bit too abruptly. With Michael Jackson also biting the proverbial dust, who's next on the list of "Deaths that would stop the world"?

Rule: no politicians or people of substantial power (like the Pope).

ZouDave: Brett Favre?

Doug: No, no, the entire world... not just Peter King's.

ZouDave: and John Madden's.

RPT: As I responded to the person who asked this on Twitter the other day, my immediate reaction was Ali.

ZouDave: His mama named him Clay, I'mma call him Clay.

RPT: Question to the esteemed members of the roundtable:

Is the "Illannoy" variation of Illinois as stupid, stale and played out as "Misery" is for Missouri?

ZouDave: Yes.  But that doesn't mean it will go away.

The only nicknames for other schools that have stuck with me are "beakers" and "nubs".  "Nubs" isn't all that creative or insulting, but it's certainly easier to say than "Nebraskans" or whatever.  I'm not going to call them "Huskers" anymore than I would call beakers "Hawks".  Those are terms I find to friendly and familiar, and those are things I don't want to be with beakers or nubs.

You know the one I don't get at all?  T-Sips.  I hear Aggies call Texas people "T-Sips" all the time and I don't get it.  Explain it to me, oh wise Texans!

RPT: T-Sip, as in someone who legitimately sips tea, generally with their pinky raised in the air in condescending fashion.

Doug: Wow... that is a scathing nickname.

ZouDave: and is the pinky part of that explanation supposed to then be a reference to the "hook 'em horns" hand gesture?  If so, then it's a pretty decent insult.  If not, it seems like it could be used against aTm just as easily.

ghtd36: So, I'm looking at the referral stats from Sooner Disrespect Chronicles, and most of it is coming from the forums. So, I follow the link, and apparently:

1) I'm not funny.
2) I'm doing satire wrong.
3) I should be more concerned about Oklahoma beating Missouri.
4) Missouri doesn't have a conference.
5) I've wasted everybody's time.

Unbelievable! Oklahoma fans don't like being the subject of ridicule? OW. MY PRIDE.

I guess I should probably just eat a gun.

RPT: To be fair, you writing satire instead of watching film is the exact reason Missouri has struggled with Oklahoma.

ghtd36: I'd accuse them of ad hominem attacks, but I'm pretty sure they'd accuse me of using some sort of secret terrorist language.

ZouDave: I think their fans just don't like being disrespected.....


RPT: This has promise.

ghtd36: Wouldn't that be a meta-meme?

We're through the looking glass now.

ZouDave: black is white, and white is black.

And Michael Jackson is still dead.

Michael Atchison: Man, I walk away for 90 minutes and Doug moves to Albuquerque.  Good luck in extreme West Texas as Kinky Friedman calls it.

Greg, any team that allows Willie Bloomquist to reach third base gets what they deserve.

We’ve discovered the world’s foremost proponent of Bob’s 47 (had some on tap on Saturday night when I was seeing Alejandro Escovedo, the finest Austin, TX export ever).

And the Beck thing wasn’t much of a joke.  His time as a morning zoo jock (stand up’s first cousin) paved the way to TV:

And I’m a little shocked at the lack of pessimism surrounding Washington’s suspension.  He was the number one tailback by a mile.  I hope Kendial Lawrence is the answer, but that’s a lot to expect of him.

Gotta run again.

ZouDave: anyone else picturing Atch as that guy in Airplane! that just randomly jumps on screen, tells a joke, then jumps off screen again?

"And Leon's getting....laaaaaaaaarrrrrgggggeerrr."

ghtd36: Michael Atchison: master of the drive-by bummer.

ghtd36: And Atch, to be sure: Willie Boomquist was a pinch-runner after Wilson Betemit doubled in the 9th.

/not much better

(30 minutes later...)

ghtd36: As I just posted on RMN, Derrick Washington is done at Mizzou, per a press release.

At least there's no lingering doubt anymore.

ZouDave: Well, doesn't that just bring us all to a screeching halt?

I'm not surprised.  I really didn't see this ending another way.  Coach Norman Dale once said "I would hope you would support who we are, not who we are not.  These individuals have made the choice to work, the choice to sacrifice, to put themselves on the line 12 times for the next four months, to represent you, this school.  That kind of commitment and effort deserves and demands your respect.  This is your team."


That's how we're going to have to go about this.  Worrying about what the loss means or hoping for a different outcome will get us nowhere.  This is our team.  Our starting RB is Kendial Lawrence.  Let's go.

ghtd36: To remind:

Complete with Fat GHTD36!

ZouDave: Oh and I guess it's official that Tony Mitchell is ineligible.

Our karma cleansing may have had the opposite effect we intended.  Is the next thread going to be about us posting stuff that should piss off the football gods?  Or perhaps hardcore porn?